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Post by klaiggeb on Aug 20, 2013 9:46:56 GMT -5
We're out of the race. No question. But last night... against Lester and the TIRED Red Sox? We didn't even make much of an effort.
That was pathetic. Really pathetic.
To my eye it looked like their hearts weren't in the game from the first pitch on.
And then, after Timmy's second inning, IMHO... they just laid down, rolled over, went belly up and quit.
That's what I saw.
Sutcliffe and company kept raving about Lester... but from what I saw? I still don't understand why.
He threw 5 or 6 really good, sharp sliders, but basically, he was all over the strike zone with all of his pitches, missing the target frequently.
So what did Giant hitters do? Why... Chase pitches early in the count, that's what!
Nice approach.
Nice game plan.
If you're only going to half ass it, boys, why show up at all?
The ONLY players whom I saw really giving it their best were:
Torres & Pill
That's it.
boly
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Post by rxmeister on Aug 20, 2013 11:46:43 GMT -5
Good pitching often makes hitters look listless, Boly, and when your starter puts you in an early 3-0 deficit, it makes it even worse. Hitters start trying to do too much and swing at bad pitches. Buster Posey and two hits and just missed a homerun, I don't see why you didn't include him in your list. Besides, it's not right to judge that Andres Torres is trying harder than Marco Scutaro, for example, because Torres had a good game and Scutaro didn't. If anything, I'd say Torres wasn't trying because that bobble in centerfield was the number one poor effort play I saw from the Giants all game.
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Post by dk on Aug 20, 2013 11:57:30 GMT -5
Good pitching often makes hitters look listless, Boly, and when your starter puts you in an early 3-0 deficit, it makes it even worse. Hitters start trying to do too much and swing at bad pitches. Buster Posey and two hits and just missed a homerun, I don't see why you didn't include him in your list. Besides, it's not right to judge that Andres Torres is trying harder than Marco Scutaro, for example, because Torres had a good game and Scutaro didn't. If anything, I'd say Torres wasn't trying because that bobble in centerfield was the number one poor effort play I saw from the Giants all game. dk..no comments about Posey's error....can we keep Sanchez now?
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Post by allenreed on Aug 20, 2013 13:23:15 GMT -5
Not only that but no comment on another sorry outing from Timmy. Second outing in a row in which Tim has given up a run for every inning pitched. He now leads the league in losses, which he also did last season, and now has three consecutive seasons in which he has reached the teens in losses
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Post by allenreed on Aug 20, 2013 13:23:52 GMT -5
Not only that but no comment on another sorry outing from Timmy. Second outing in a row in which Tim has given up a run for every inning pitched. He now leads the league in losses, which he also did last season, and now has three consecutive seasons in which he has reached the teens in losses
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sfgdood
Long time member
stats geeks never played the game...that's why they don't get it and never will
Posts: 90
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Post by sfgdood on Aug 20, 2013 13:31:19 GMT -5
I didnt see the team quit. Hell if they were going to quit it would already have happened. Those last two games in DC should tell you right there that this team wont ever quit. And Friday in Miami, the team could have crumbled when the Marlins kept coming back...but they bowed up and kept scoring. That was quite telling, IMO.
Boston is a better team and they are hungry as hell. And Lester just has our number for whatever reason. They probably were pissed off about losing to the Yankees too. I'm not going to read more into that one game.
~Dood
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sfgdood
Long time member
stats geeks never played the game...that's why they don't get it and never will
Posts: 90
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Post by sfgdood on Aug 20, 2013 13:35:05 GMT -5
Not only that but no comment on another sorry outing from Timmy
Dood - we never see any comments from you when Tim has a dominant outing...unless it is to somehow downplay it. Kinda like we heard nothing from you when Pablo went 4-for-4 with 2 walks in Miami...deathly silent when he put his body at risk by hustling out an infield single...no congratulations to him for losing 22 pounds. Nope, no hate there.
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Post by allenreed on Aug 20, 2013 13:40:36 GMT -5
Ok, Randy. I can see you're just trying to mess with me here.
Do you really think either Timmy or Pablo are earning their keep? Seriously?
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sfgdood
Long time member
stats geeks never played the game...that's why they don't get it and never will
Posts: 90
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Post by sfgdood on Aug 20, 2013 13:53:16 GMT -5
I think they are definitely putting in the requisite effort and work required in the contract so they are in no way breaching their duties. Probably they work more than what is required. Are they justifying the money spent on them this year? Definitely not...but they hardly are the only ones in MLB you can say that about. Of course their respective resumes definitely prove that what the Giants paid was pretty close to market value at the time of the contracts.
Also, if you take their full body of work and put it against what they have been paid throughout their careers, I think you'll find the Giants are on the plus side with both of them.
~Dood
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Post by allenreed on Aug 20, 2013 16:28:55 GMT -5
Dodging the qestion, or maybe we're just talking of differnt things. My point is that there's people here who have a fit if you even discuss getting rid of these guys, yet both have performed poorly for quite awhile now. Tim has reached the teens in losses for three straight years now, and may lead the league in losses for two years running. Pablo has had subpar offensive years in three of the last four seasons. His weight and conditioning have been a constant problem throughout his career. Both have had some moments of glory, but neither are currently performing very well, nor have they consistently done so for some time. Why all the hoo-ha about moving them, or letting them move on. Can you really look at Pabloat's weight over the last few years and say he's putting in the effort he should. Can you really look at Tim's poor fundamentals, and his lack of attention to the basic details of his job, and say the same?
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Post by klaiggeb on Aug 20, 2013 17:26:38 GMT -5
Good pitching often makes hitters look listless, Boly, and when your starter puts you in an early 3-0 deficit, it makes it even worse. Hitters start trying to do too much and swing at bad pitches. Buster Posey and two hits and just missed a homerun, I don't see why you didn't include him in your list. Besides, it's not right to judge that Andres Torres is trying harder than Marco Scutaro, for example, because Torres had a good game and Scutaro didn't. If anything, I'd say Torres wasn't trying because that bobble in centerfield was the number one poor effort play I saw from the Giants all game.
--boly says---
Mark, I agree with you; good pitching does make hitters look incompetent.
Except I didn't think Lester was sharp at all.
As I said, he was all over the place with his pitches.
What I saw was a listless performance from all but whom I mentioned.
I didn't think Posey looked that in to it, either.
Yeah, he tagged one ball, but I wasn't really impressed with much else about his game, though he did do well blocking a couple of pitches.
But catcher's interference? That's just lazy hands, same way that Sanchez was in that last game in Miami
Scutaro, wasn't his normal disciplined self.
Pablo chased more crap than normal.
Belt looked over matched even on pitches that weren't all that sharp.
Same with Crawford.
Sorry, Mark, but I disagree.
boly
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Post by rxmeister on Aug 20, 2013 21:16:56 GMT -5
The catcher's interference deserves an asterisk, Boly, because the hitter was Jacoby Ellsbury, who amazingly has had ten catcher's interference calls against him due to his long swing. In fact one player has been responsible for 25 % of all catcher's interference calls since he came in the league!
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sfgdood
Long time member
stats geeks never played the game...that's why they don't get it and never will
Posts: 90
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Post by sfgdood on Aug 21, 2013 1:43:07 GMT -5
Walk off win tonight. Not bad for a team that has given up the season.
~Dood
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Post by rxmeister on Aug 21, 2013 7:44:34 GMT -5
Even a win is frustrating though. It has to be handed to them with a bases loaded walk. Three innings in a row they had a man in scoring position with nobody out and couldn't get him home. And twice the runner was on third!
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Post by klaiggeb on Aug 21, 2013 9:42:39 GMT -5
The catcher's interference deserves an asterisk, Boly, because the hitter was Jacoby Ellsbury, who amazingly has had ten catcher's interference calls against him due to his long swing. In fact one player has been responsible for 25 % of all catcher's interference calls since he came in the league!
---boly says---
That many??? Wow! I heard from Sutcliffe that Pete Rose used to do that when he felt over matched, but...
How does one develope a skill like that?
A couple more points on my original post; Did you hear Belt's comments yesterday? He said HE was tired the night before.
Sutcliffe pointed out that the Giants looked tired, too. Which is nuts because the Giants got in way earlier than Boston... whose players on got some 6 1/2 hours sleep and THEN got on a long flight.
Made no sense to me.
boly
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Post by rxmeister on Aug 21, 2013 13:30:03 GMT -5
I understand the Giants being tired, Boly, flying in from Florida without a day off. I agree that the Red Sox should have been more tired though. Obviously the difference is that one team is playing for something and the other isn't.
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Post by sharksrog on Aug 22, 2013 9:47:08 GMT -5
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Post by sharksrog on Aug 22, 2013 9:48:25 GMT -5
Allen -- Not only that but no comment on another sorry outing from Timmy. Second outing in a row in which Tim has given up a run for every inning pitched. He now leads the league in losses, which he also did last season, and now has three consecutive seasons in which he has reached the teens in losses Rog -- Sorry, Allen, but the biggest loser on the topic of losses is you. You don't think the Giants would "settle" for the Tim of 2011 in an instant? Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=general&thread=1968&page=1#ixzz2ci3J3HRg
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Post by allenreed on Aug 22, 2013 10:12:39 GMT -5
Facta are facts Rog, no matter how much you wish to ignore them and hope they go away. Tim lost 14 games in 2011. Whether the Giants would settle for the Tim of that year has no relevance whatsoever.
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Post by allenreed on Aug 22, 2013 10:16:13 GMT -5
dk..no comments about Posey's error....can we keep Sanchez now? Rog -- Of COURSE the Giants are going to keep Sanchez. Why are you even bringing this up? Allen- I don't think the Giants would be averse to trading Hector if the right deal came along. At least they shouldn't be. Of course Bochy did speak ysterday of the possibility of moving Posey to third. Wake up call, Pablo!
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Post by rxmeister on Aug 22, 2013 11:01:08 GMT -5
Matt Cain has a lifetime record of 93-86, makes over 120 million dollars, and NOBODY thinks he's overpaid! What does that tell you about the importance of a pitcher's W-L record? Allen, I'm just amazed that a solid sports fan as you, who makes so many good points on this board on different matters, continues to use a pitcher's W-L as part of your argument. It defeats your purpose, and unfortunately with Timmy, there ARE so many other stats you can point to! ERA alone is a great argument. I believe he was last among starting pitchers in ERA last year, and although better this year, it's still pretty bad. He's actually ranked number 73 in ERA, and the Giants are paying him over 20 million! What's his free agent pitch? Give me a big deal because although I pitched poorly, I was better than I was the previous year? I hope they re-sign Timmy, but they better be really careful about the money they pay him. They should extend him the QO then let him find an offer on the open market and bring it back to them. If he doesn't want to do that, that's a risk worth taking. If Timmy regains his Cy Young form somewhere else, the Giants can just shrug and say oh well, we got two rings while he was here!
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Post by allenreed on Aug 22, 2013 11:29:50 GMT -5
I wouldn't say that. I certainly think he's overpaid. Given that his job consists of throwing a baseball past people trying to hit it with a stick, I think any reasonable person would think he's grossly overpaid. I don't think it defeats my purpose at all. You want to use that argument because someone out ther (Brian Kenny?) told you it was the right way to think. Again you can't throw big money after a guy who just loses game after game. And it isn't as if his other stats are stellar. You like to point to Felix Hernandez as an example of how W/L is irrelevant, but Felix (though pitching for a bad team) still has managed to post a winning record four of the last five years. The other year he was .500. Tim isn't even coming close to that.
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Post by rxmeister on Aug 22, 2013 21:23:49 GMT -5
Your argument isn't good here, Allen, because you're comparing a pitcher who has been bad the last two years to the best pitcher in the American League. Why does Felix win more games than he loses? Well, he's the best pitcher in the American League! Felix has pitched great for a bad hitting team, and he's so good he's still able to post a winning record. Timmy on the other hand, has pitched poorly for a bad hitting team, therefore he has a losing record. In 2011 Tim had a losing record even though he pitched well. However, he was just one game under .500. Would you agree he doesn't deserve a losing record when he posts a 2.72 ERA? Finally, I'm not sure who Brian Kenny is, but if he said W-L is meaningless, he's correct. Who told you W-L is important, Christy Mathewson?
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Post by allenreed on Aug 22, 2013 22:04:44 GMT -5
My apologies. When I first read your post I thought it was from Rog, because it sounded so much like his usual spiel. I might go with Verlander ahead of Felix, but he's right up there. Thing is when you're making $22 million, you should be among the best, too. If you're going to say Tim is a bad pitcher, then we have no argument. We're in agreement. Who told me W-L is important? The standings. Teams that lose don't win. (How's that for a motto?) Winning is why you play. Going on tonight, I'd definitely say Cain is overpaid. He's just brain dead heaving balls right down the middle and just getting torched.
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Post by sharksrog on Aug 22, 2013 23:43:57 GMT -5
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Post by sharksrog on Aug 22, 2013 23:45:51 GMT -5
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Post by sharksrog on Aug 22, 2013 23:49:55 GMT -5
Allen -- You like to point to Felix Hernandez as an example of how W/L is irrelevant, but Felix (though pitching for a bad team) still has managed to post a winning record four of the last five years. Rog -- From 2010 through 2012, Felix went 40-35 with a ERA of about 2.90. The first says he's a little above average. The second says he's one of the top pitchers in the game. Which seems more accurate to you? I'm really getting tired of trying to convince you of something most baseball fans now take for granted. You're not a reactionary, are you? Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=general&thread=1968&page=1#ixzz2clSSDAcO
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Post by allenreed on Aug 23, 2013 12:01:20 GMT -5
I'm just a guy who doesn't follow the crowd of lemmings over the cliff, Rog. The idea that there is some kind of total disconnect between a pitcher's ability and his W-L record is just completely bonkers.
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sfgdood
Long time member
stats geeks never played the game...that's why they don't get it and never will
Posts: 90
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Post by sfgdood on Aug 23, 2013 12:22:19 GMT -5
Answer me this, Allen...between a pitcher who goes 18-7 with an ERA of 4.21 and one that went 13-14 with an ERA of 2.47, which would you say is better?
~Dood
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Post by Islandboagie on Aug 23, 2013 12:40:40 GMT -5
This is growing trend now in baseball. Fans are being given loads of information, much more than ever before, and now they think they're all as knowledgeable as the coaches and scouts just because they bought a magazine.
I agree with you, in the end wins are really the most important stat when you want to WIN. All those other stats HELP us assess players, so they are important too. Unfortunately there are stats geek out there who see baseball as a dungeons and dragons game, and discount what happens on the field. I'm hoping over time that fans will take the stats for what they're worth, and realize that a lot of them were created to sell a book or a magazine.
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