sfgdood
Long time member
stats geeks never played the game...that's why they don't get it and never will
Posts: 90
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Post by sfgdood on Aug 13, 2013 20:27:42 GMT -5
Last week on the Fitz and Brooks show...for what it's worth...
"Gary is an incredibly talented player that has run through some tough times along with success in the minor leagues. At every level he’s had success and most recently at AA last year and AAA this year he’s had success but he’s also struggled. And those struggles can ultimately make him a better player if he can learn from them and make the adjustments that the game is really asking him to make. You know, the pitchers, you can fool them once or fool them twice but eventually they’re going to figure you out. The same can be said of a hitter…you (the pitcher) can fool me once or fool me twice and at some point the hitter can figure it out. And that’s where Gary has to make those adjustments and figure those guys out. And that part of development is hard. At this point in his career, in terms of at-bats, he’s accumulated enough at bats that he’s really not that far away in terms of experience. But you want to be at a place where, when you’re in the big leagues, you’ve put yourself in the big leagues. It’s not the club calling you up. You make it abundantly clear that you’re ready, and that’s the best case scenario. It doesn't always work that way, because sometimes the needs of the big league team effects that."
~Dood
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Post by rxmeister on Aug 14, 2013 8:13:34 GMT -5
Two doubles last night. Hopefully that's the start of something.
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Post by sharksrog on Aug 16, 2013 9:00:35 GMT -5
For what it's worth, here's what I take from Evans' comments:
First of all, Randy is right -- Gary is very talented.
He has struggled at AA and AAA, but the Giants are still hoping he'll make the necessary adjustments and become their center fielder. The past two seasons, he's had a hard time making those adjustments.
The Giants thought Gary would be ready by now -- or at worst, to start next season.
One possible benefit is that the Giants haven't needed to bring Gary up before he is ready.
My comment: Gary's June bounce back this year was impressive, but he hasn't been able to sustain it. If he had continued his June success, he'd be the Giants starting centerfielder today.
The Giants like a player to knock the major league door down before he is called up (Lincecum, Posey, Bumgarner), but sometimes need rushes a player a bit (Belt, Crawford). If Gary had continued to bounce back after June, he would at some point have been called up to become the Giants center fielder.
Perhaps that would have resulted in rushing him, and thus his struggle this season could be a blessing in disguise. But at some point, he needs to make the adjustments necessary for him to break down the major league door. Otherwise, his early time in the majors could be very difficult, since Gary has had a tough time developing quickly at the AA and AAA levels.
As Mark says, lets hope the two doubles were the start of something good.
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Post by rxmeister on Aug 16, 2013 9:48:15 GMT -5
Had another couple of hits last night, so maybe he's going to get hot now. Certainly it's time for one of those right handed hitters at Fresno to take the place of Jeff Francoeur, be it Brown, Peguero or Perez.
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sfgdood
Long time member
stats geeks never played the game...that's why they don't get it and never will
Posts: 90
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Post by sfgdood on Aug 16, 2013 13:54:59 GMT -5
If Gary can somehow finish out the month on a hot streak, I don't think there's any way you should keep him off the September roster.
~Dood
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Post by sharksrog on Aug 17, 2013 9:26:57 GMT -5
Randy -- If Gary can somehow finish out the month on a hot streak, I don't think there's any way you should keep him off the September roster. Rog -- I could go either way on this one. Pros: . Gain experience, get the feel of the bigs . At the least can pinch run and play defense. . Team is out of it, so why not? . Gary has started VERY slowly at both AA and AAA, so why not get at least some of his adjustment out of the way? Cons: . Unless he gets REALLY hot, has he earned it? . Starts salary status clock ticking. . Need to add a 40-man roster spot. . Could shake his confidence if not ready. On balance: I think getting the early jitters and usual slow start out of the way is a good idea. It's a very close call though, and I trust the Giants' judgment on this one. Start transition -- or lose confidence? Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=general&thread=1958&page=1#13874#ixzz2cEiJzJkX
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Post by rxmeister on Aug 17, 2013 10:07:54 GMT -5
Had another couple of hits, including a HR last night, but I agree with Rog, and although I'd prefer to see him than Francoeur, I don't think his play merits a call up. Are you calling him up because he's earned it, or because he's Gary Brown, former number one draft pick? It would definitely be the latter, so I would call up someone like Peguero.
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sfgdood
Long time member
stats geeks never played the game...that's why they don't get it and never will
Posts: 90
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Post by sfgdood on Aug 17, 2013 14:04:27 GMT -5
Give me a break guys...has every September callup ALWAYS "earned" that callup? And by whose definition was it earned? I'm not saying they should call Gary up and play him every day and give him Bochy's first class seat on the team charter and let him bang every veteran's wife/girlfriend whenever he wants. Geeze you guys act like these callups are the same thing as being ordained the team savior. Nothing about a September callup says that player never has to worry about being sent back down. What's the big freakin deal about it? Our outfield is lousy. What's wrong with calling up Brown IF he stays hot? I'm beginning to think it's personal with you guys.
~Dood
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Post by allenreed on Aug 17, 2013 17:59:52 GMT -5
Got to agree with you Randy. Bring him up. Bring Peguero up too. We're out of it, let's see what these guys can do and give them some experience.
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Post by rxmeister on Aug 17, 2013 23:02:35 GMT -5
It's not personal, Dood, it's about practicality and fairness. If Perez and Peguero are hitting .300 at Fresno, why would you bypass them to call up the disappointing .240 hitter? What message does that send, and how exactly does that help the team? You think someone hitting .240 at Fresno belongs in the big leagues? We've had players like Todd Linden hit .335 down there and then come up and not hit. Brett Pill is another example of that, although he still has a chance of accomplishing something. Jason Ellison hit .400 down there and couldn't hit big league pitching! But Gary Brown, who is struggling at Fresno is going to come up here and tear up major league pitching? You're even doing him a disservice bringing him up when he's struggling. What good would it do a struggling hitter to bring him up to face the best pitchers in the world?
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sfgdood
Long time member
stats geeks never played the game...that's why they don't get it and never will
Posts: 90
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Post by sfgdood on Aug 17, 2013 23:35:05 GMT -5
I don't care what the overall stats say...if a guy you believe in and have invested heavily in is hot coming into September, why would you NOT call him up? Will he learn more going up to the big leagues or going back to his living room sofa to watch football?
AND, I never said anyone deserving should be bypassed...not even once. The plain fact is both Peguero and Perez got their chance earlier this year and were not able to stick. That said, if they are hot, I say bring them up too...it's not like there isnt room for all 3.
~Dood
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Post by rxmeister on Aug 18, 2013 11:00:11 GMT -5
Bringing up all three right handed hitting outfielders is impractical because there's not enough playing time to go around, especially with Mr. Platoon managing the club. Let's not also forget that Angel Pagan played in a rehab game last night, and you can expect Angel to get a lot of playing time in September. I read recently from Schulman that he was told the Giants would go outside the organization next year for a left fielder, either by free agency or trade, which doesn't bode well for any of the kids mentioned, including Roger Kieschnick. That actually could be good news for Gary Brown, because of this group his speed and defensive ability gives him an edge for the fourth outfield spot in 2014. A big spring training could cement that.
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sfgdood
Long time member
stats geeks never played the game...that's why they don't get it and never will
Posts: 90
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Post by sfgdood on Aug 18, 2013 19:00:14 GMT -5
I repeat...a guy can learn a lot more on a big league roster in September than he can sitting on his sofa watching the NFL...even if he's not playing a lot. There's really nothing to gain by not calling him up.
~Dood
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Post by rxmeister on Aug 19, 2013 9:24:14 GMT -5
It's hard to look good when your playing time is sporadic though, Dood. Ask Buster Posey, who hit .118 in his September call up in 2009. I'd call up Peguero only and look at him every day or at least in a platoon with Kieschnick. The Giants will go out of the organization for a left fielder next year in my opinion, and Schulman mentioned this too, and he might have had a source. A poor September showing by a trio who start once a week, might convince them to really go long term on any acquisition and doom Brown permanently to a backup position.
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sfgdood
Long time member
stats geeks never played the game...that's why they don't get it and never will
Posts: 90
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Post by sfgdood on Aug 19, 2013 11:24:25 GMT -5
You're missing the main objective here. It's for Brown to learn and become better. Even failure in September would be a learning experience for Gary...much more than being sent home to veg out on his sofa would.
~Dood
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Post by rxmeister on Aug 19, 2013 11:30:25 GMT -5
I'm not missing it, I'm disagreeing with you on the whole idea of Gary Brown. Gary Brown was a first round draft choice with tons of potential, which is what we agree on. What we disagree on is that your opinion of him hasn't diminished because of his poor minor league performance, while mine has. You want him to have special treatment because of his lofty potential, while I want him to look like he belongs in the major leagues before he gets called up.
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sfgdood
Long time member
stats geeks never played the game...that's why they don't get it and never will
Posts: 90
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Post by sfgdood on Aug 19, 2013 12:10:19 GMT -5
Yes we do disagree on pretty much every part of this. What you have to understand is that before an organization will just give up on what is unquestionably a very talented first rounder, they are going to devote lots of time and resources to try and develop him. This business isn't about fairness. First rounders are always going to get more benefit of the doubt and more time and energy devoted to them. That's just how it works. If you are thought of highly enough to have a team spend a high pick on you, then it stands to reason that team expects a lot from you and will do what it has to do in order to reap the rewards expected of a first rounder.
Later picks will get less time spent on them because they didn't cost as much in terms of draft position. That doesn't mean their opportunities are less. It simply means they will likely get less attention...at least until their play begs for more attention.
Now as to September callups...there is a difference of what the objective is from a team that is still in the playoff race and one that isn't. Playoff race teams will bring prospects up more judiciously, meaning only those they believe will help them in some specific way in their chase for the postseason. These players usually will be bench players used later in games for pinch running, hitting or for fielding purposes.
Teams out of the playoff race will most likely bring up players they want to get a taste of the big leagues...guys they believe will play a role in the future of the team. There might be the odd carrot thrown to a player as a "reward" for a good season in the minors, but for the most part the players are those they are trying to season a bit for their futures on the team. The actual September numbers usually don't concern the team too much. They would of course love for these guys to excel in September but whether they do or not, the players get teaching and seasoning that they wouldnt get if they were home drinking beer and playing Madden with their buddies. It also might give the manager a better idea of what these players need to be working on when Spring Training starts.
~Dood
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Post by rxmeister on Aug 19, 2013 12:29:40 GMT -5
According to MLB's top 20 Giants prospects, Gary Brown is number nine and Frankie Peguero is number ten! With Peguero hitting .310 and Brown .235, why should Gary Brown get the benefit of the doubt again?
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sfgdood
Long time member
stats geeks never played the game...that's why they don't get it and never will
Posts: 90
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Post by sfgdood on Aug 19, 2013 12:50:47 GMT -5
Once again...this business is NOT about fairness. I commend Peguero for having a fine season at Fresno...much improved over his 2012 campaign. That doesn't mean that any of us should believe Francisco's future is brighter than Gary's at this point. There is a reason Francisco is in his 8th Minor League season with only a couple cups of coffee in SF so far, even though his batting stats have been very good at all levels. There's also a reason that despite these good stats and Gary's poor stats, Brown is still above Peguero on the prospect lists.
~Dood
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Post by sharksrog on Aug 19, 2013 16:53:43 GMT -5
Randy -- Give me a break guys...has every September callup ALWAYS "earned" that callup? Rog -- If the guy isn't on the 40-man roster, pretty much, yeah. As an example, Brandon Belt didn't get called up, and he had a much better season than Gary has. Bobby has said that ideally a player makes it so he almost CAN'T not be called up. He said that sometimes circumstances (such as with the two Brandons) can force the issue, but that wasn't what the Giants prefered. Hey, Pablo was called up from AA -- mostly because of need. But he also was playing a whole lot better than Brown has. By not calling Gary up, they're not telling him they aren't looking toward his future. They're simply telling him he's not ready enough for them to remove someone from the 40-man roster in order to bring him up. Don't you get it that Gary has been a big bust this season, Randy? That doesn't mean he has no future. It simply means that the Giants can't count on him to fill a much-needed outfield spot next season. It isn't that Gary can't EARN that spot. It's that he hasn't done so yet. When a guy is hitting .232 in a big hitters' league and is approaching 25 years of age, he's no longer a top prospect -- no matter WHAT his ability level. That doesn't mean he won't ever play in the majors. It doesn't even mean he'll never be a starter. What it does mean is that he hasn't yet learned how to USE all that ability he has. Gary's OBP this season is just .287. That would be disappointing if that were what he was accomplishing in the majors. For him to be doing that poorly in a hitters' AAA league is VERY disappointing. To put Gary's performance into perspective, Francisco Peguero isn't the greatest Giants prospect, and at just four months older than Brown, Francisco is hitting 80 points higher. Looked at another way, he's hitting a THIRD higher than Brown. If he were doing better it could certainly be overlooked, but despite his speed, Gary STILL hasn't learned how to steal a base. At just 15 for 26, he's clearly HURT his team by trying to steal. But not as badly as he's hurt them at the plate. Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=general&thread=1958&page=1#13897#ixzz2cSAF0LK0
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Post by sharksrog on Aug 19, 2013 17:10:19 GMT -5
Randy -- I don't care what the overall stats say...if a guy you believe in and have invested heavily in is hot coming into September, why would you NOT call him up? Rog -- Don't you get it, Randy? The Giants DON'T believe in Gary as they did two years ago. Why would they? Heck, there were questions with his hitting when he was DRAFTED. If there hadn't been at least a LITTLE question or two, with his great speed and glove, don't you think he would have gone HIGH in the first round? The questions about his bat have grown since you saw him in 2011. You're saying you saw the talent as if you will somehow be a horrible judge of talent if he doesn't succeed. Hey, the scouts don't always get it right, so how can we be expected to? Remember how up until recently you thought everyone was abandoning Brandon (abandon Brandon?)? No one is abandoning Gary. I think it is more that they are reacting to how horrible a season he is happening, after not improving at Augusta last season as was expected. What do you know that the scouts don't? Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=general&thread=1958&page=1#ixzz2cSFCl6Ov
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Post by sharksrog on Aug 19, 2013 17:26:15 GMT -5
Mark -- I read recently from Schulman that he was told the Giants would go outside the organization next year for a left fielder, either by free agency or trade, which doesn't bode well for any of the kids mentioned, including Roger Kieschnick. Rog -- I don't know why we seem to expect so much out of the medium prospects. Kieschnick is a good example. The guy has struck out more than once every four at bats in the minors. He's struck out 170 times in just under 600 at bats at Fresno. We wouldn't have expected him to strike out just over once every TWO AND A HALF at bats in the majors, but one out of every three certainly shouldn't be considered shocking. In the minors, he's struck out three times for every walk, and seven times for every home run. The guy is hitting even .245 only because 12 of the 29 balls he has put into play have become hits (over .400). How long is that going to last? Even in the minors, he batted .339 on balls in play. That's more than 80 points lower than in the majors. I would be very disappointed if the Giants WERE expecting to fill left field next season from within the organization. Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=general&thread=1958&page=1#ixzz2cSJeaOcZ
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Post by sharksrog on Aug 19, 2013 17:35:32 GMT -5
Gary Brown is hitting just .198 in 116 at bats since the AAA All-Star game (which he didn't participate in, by the way). Why would the Giants want to call him up now?
At what point does reason enter the equation here?
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sfgdood
Long time member
stats geeks never played the game...that's why they don't get it and never will
Posts: 90
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Post by sfgdood on Aug 19, 2013 18:03:39 GMT -5
Randy -- I don't care what the overall stats say...if a guy you believe in and have invested heavily in is hot coming into September, why would you NOT call him up?
Rog -- Don't you get it, Randy? The Giants DON'T believe in Gary as they did two years ago. Why would they?
Dood - oh really? Have they come out and stated that Gary is a bust? That they made a mistake in drafting him? Have they stated publicly that they have given up on him? Have they stopped playing him in Fresno? Did they send him back down to Richmond (by the way, the AA team is in Richmond, not Augusta...you who claims to know so much should know at least that much). Have they tried to unload him on the trade market? It amazes me how your pompous ass thinks he knows what the Giants truly believe when you are not part of the front office. You're just talking out of your ass as usual
~Dood
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sfgdood
Long time member
stats geeks never played the game...that's why they don't get it and never will
Posts: 90
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Post by sfgdood on Aug 19, 2013 18:14:58 GMT -5
Randy -- Give me a break guys...has every September callup ALWAYS "earned" that callup?
Rog -- If the guy isn't on the 40-man roster, pretty much, yeah.
Dood - you said last week that not being on the 40 man means very little when it comes to being called up in September. Need some Alzheimers meds?
As an example, Brandon Belt didn't get called up, and he had a much better season than Gary has.
Dood - it wouldnt have had anything to do with the 1st base position being filled very capably by Huff and Ishikawa that season would it?
Bobby has said that ideally a player makes it so he almost CAN'T not be called up. He said that sometimes circumstances (such as with the two Brandons) can force the issue, but that wasn't what the Giants prefered.
Dood - you are mixing situations. The discussion on this thread was about September callups. Not earning a callup onto the 25 man roster, as was the context of Bobby's statement.
~Dood
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Post by sharksrog on Aug 19, 2013 18:25:30 GMT -5
Randy -- I don't care what the overall stats say...if a guy you believe in and have invested heavily in is hot coming into September, why would you NOT call him up? Rog -- Don't you get it, Randy? The Giants DON'T believe in Gary as they did two years ago. Why would they? Dood - oh really? Have they come out and stated that Gary is a bust? Rog -- No, the Giants certainly haven't come out and stated that Gary is a bust. I don't think they DO believe that. I certainly don't. But I -- and likely they -- believe his prospects have decline the past two seasons. Two years ago I don't think there was much question that the Giants -- and others -- considered Gary to be the top prospect in the organization. Now I think there are few in the Giants' organization or elsewhere who DO feel that way. You seem to be begging the question here, Randy. The point I made wasn't that the Giants considered Gary to be a bust -- simply that they don't consider him to be as good a prospect as they considered him two years ago. You don't agree they feel that way? Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=general&thread=1958&page=1#13994#ixzz2cSbG8oqB
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sfgdood
Long time member
stats geeks never played the game...that's why they don't get it and never will
Posts: 90
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Post by sfgdood on Aug 19, 2013 18:30:22 GMT -5
You seem to be begging the question here, Randy. The point I made wasn't that the Giants considered Gary to be a bust -- simply that they don't consider him to be as good a prospect as they considered him two years ago.
You don't agree they feel that way?
Dood - I have no way of knowing that and niether do you...unless you have a mole in Brian Sabean's office that you havent told us about. They certainly havent made any moves that would indicate that.
~Dood
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Post by rxmeister on Aug 19, 2013 19:48:23 GMT -5
Dood, do you think they'll call Gary Brown in for the "he's a bust" press conference, or do you think they'll do a conference call? Seriously, you expect them to announce he's a bust, and admit they made a mistake? I doubt Sabean has even admitted the AJ Pierzynski trade was a mistake. He hasn't owned up to Beltran-Wheeler either. As for trading him, who would want him at this point? His trade value is nil, and as we talked about in the Sandoval thread, you shouldn't trade low.
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Post by sharksrog on Aug 19, 2013 20:27:08 GMT -5
Rog -- they don't consider him to be as good a prospect as they considered him two years ago. You don't agree they feel that way? Dood - I have no way of knowing that and niether do you. Rog -- You're technically right that I don't know for sure. But they're NOT feeling that way wouldn't pass the common sense test. Is Tim LIncecum as good a prospect now as he was at the end of 2009? Is Pablo Sandoval? Is Manny Burriss? How about Thomas Neal? You are absolutely right that we have no way of knowing for sure, but I can assure you the scouting reports I have seen about Gary have been declining. Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=general&thread=1958&page=1#14001#ixzz2cT5iN46L
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sfgdood
Long time member
stats geeks never played the game...that's why they don't get it and never will
Posts: 90
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Post by sfgdood on Aug 19, 2013 22:13:29 GMT -5
Sabean has admitted to making a mistake on Pierzinsky. I've also heard him admit that the Beltran/Wheeler deal was predicated on his belief that they were going to be able to re-sign Carlos, which obviously didnt end up happening...and since that didn't happen, it turned out that it blew up in his face...although somewhat mitigated by the trades for Melky, Scutaro and Pence. And since the Beltran trade, the Giants did win the WS whereas the Mets don't really appear to be very close even with Wheeler doing pretty well.
While I don't expect a press conference, both Sabean and Bobby Evans do regular interviews on radio and on Comcast Sportsnet, and one of the frequent topics this year, with the team doing so awfully, has been Brown and some of the other prospects. I have yet to hear any overt statements that indicate they have lost faith, although there certainly is a fair amount of frustration. Other more cryptic indicators would be sending Brown down a level, lessening his playing time or openly shopping him, none of which has happened as of yet.
~Dood
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