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DFA'd
Aug 11, 2013 11:45:02 GMT -5
Post by sharksrog on Aug 11, 2013 11:45:02 GMT -5
Boagie -- Pure hitting will drive in runs.
Rog -- What is ironic is how FEW runs "pure hitters" knock in. As an example, Tony Gwynn is considered one of the best "pure hitters" of all time, and he drove in more than 72 runs in a season only twice.
By the way, Tony batted second much of his career, which no doubt had something to do with that, but he hit in the three-hole more than any other spot in the order.
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DFA'd
Aug 11, 2013 12:00:55 GMT -5
Post by sharksrog on Aug 11, 2013 12:00:55 GMT -5
Boagie -- The analytic numbers don't back up what kind of player Sanchez was in 2012 Rog -- You're correct here. Hector looked like a clutch hitter, when in reality, that probably had more to do with runners on base and sample size than anything else. He drove in a run every 6.7 plate appearances. Think he'll do that again? Hector did a nice job, but his high home run total was due in great part to having so many men on base and in scoring position. He drove in 34 runs with 173 runners on base. The average hitter with 227 plate appearances drove in 24 runs with 135 runners on base. That's an RBI for every 5.1 runners for Hector; one every 5.6 for the average hitter. Hector was better than the average hitter, but not by a landslide. Hector drove in 34 runs with 95 runners in scoring position. The average hitter with the same number of plate appearances drove in 24 with 67 runners in scoring position. Hector had one RBI for every 2.8 runners in scoring position; the average hitter with the same number of plate appearances also had one for every 2.8 RISP. Given that the average player with 227 plate appearances had many more of them in which the player walked, Hector doesn't really come out much better than average. Hector had as many RBI's as he had primarily because he had a lot of runners to work with. He had an OPS of just .708 with runners on and just .683 with RISP for goodness sakes. Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=general&action=display&thread=1953&page=1#ixzz2bgDJjAtQ
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DFA'd
Aug 11, 2013 13:19:44 GMT -5
Post by Islandboagie on Aug 11, 2013 13:19:44 GMT -5
Rog -- You're correct here. Hector looked like a clutch hitter, when in reality, that probably had more to do with runners on base and sample size than anything else. He drove in a run every 6.7 plate appearances. Think he'll do that again?
Boagie- Probably not. However, I don't think that was really the argument here. Mark said Hector was among the worst backup catchers that season. If you take driving in a run 6.7 plate appearances and sustain a .280 avg through 200 at-bats how can you be considered a bad backup catcher?
If he was a starter I'd agree with a lot of the complains about Sanchez, low ops, not much power, out of shape..ect. He might have even been a little rough around the edges on defense, but he was far from a liability. I recall him being surprisingly good for not having much pro experience. For a young kid to come in here and backup Buster coming back from a major injury is actually very impressive, to knock in runs and sustain a .280 avg and not be a liability on defense on top of that is incredible. Normally you don't get both offense and defense for a backup catcher, you get one or the other...for one season at least, Hector gave us both.
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DFA'd
Aug 11, 2013 20:32:43 GMT -5
Post by sharksrog on Aug 11, 2013 20:32:43 GMT -5
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DFA'd
Aug 11, 2013 21:14:10 GMT -5
Post by dk on Aug 11, 2013 21:14:10 GMT -5
Boagie- Probably not. However, I don't think that was really the argument here. Mark said Hector was among the worst backup catchers that season. If you take driving in a run 6.7 plate appearances and sustain a .280 avg through 200 at-bats how can you be considered a bad backup catcher? Rog -- I agree with you. I thought Hector was overrated, but I didn't think he was a bad backup. Just not as good as some seemed to think. dk..I think you are judging Sanchez on a few games where he was battling a bad shoulder and was bruised and battered by Lincecum's scuds...in my opinion, he caught a great game last time out...and the one factor that always escapes you is how infrequently he gets to hit...when he was hitting m.280, he was catching 2 at of 5 games...
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DFA'd
Aug 11, 2013 22:59:47 GMT -5
Post by sharksrog on Aug 11, 2013 22:59:47 GMT -5
dk..I think you are judging Sanchez on a few games where he was battling a bad shoulder and was bruised and battered by Lincecum's scuds...in my opinion, he caught a great game last time out...and the one factor that always escapes you is how infrequently he gets to hit...when he was hitting m.280, he was catching 2 at of 5 games... Rog -- Good points. I'm a little on the fence about Hector. I don't think he's very good yet defensively; I like the way he handles pitchers; I'm not quite sure how well he'll hit. It's too bad he got out of shape and then injured. There's certainly some playing time available for him if he earns it. With Buster slumping and Belt establishing himself at first base, it would be easy to see Hector starting a few games right now to rest Buster and try to get his bat back. Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=general&action=display&thread=1953&page=2#ixzz2bilX1Pu1
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DFA'd
Aug 12, 2013 12:06:24 GMT -5
Post by Islandboagie on Aug 12, 2013 12:06:24 GMT -5
I think Buster has unconsciously mailed it in for this season.
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DFA'd
Aug 13, 2013 9:56:17 GMT -5
Post by sharksrog on Aug 13, 2013 9:56:17 GMT -5
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Post by rxmeister on Aug 13, 2013 12:30:47 GMT -5
Buster has crushed some balls recently that have died at the warning track. I'd be more inclined to think that he's more tired than anything else and that has to do with Bochy overplaying him than anything else. Using him at first base is a way to keep his bat in the lineup, but it's obviously not the same as a day off, which is why they needed a backup catcher better than Quiroz this season.
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DFA'd
Aug 13, 2013 12:39:26 GMT -5
Post by dk on Aug 13, 2013 12:39:26 GMT -5
ah, mark reads body language, too.
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Post by rxmeister on Aug 13, 2013 13:34:11 GMT -5
Not reading body language at all, DK. Just making the assumption that every day catchers tend to get tired at this point of the season, even more so when they play first base on their non catching days instead of actually resting.
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DFA'd
Aug 13, 2013 13:42:24 GMT -5
Post by Islandboagie on Aug 13, 2013 13:42:24 GMT -5
Rog -- I am usually intrigued when someone attempts to read the mind of another. What makes you think this, Boagie? (Although I suspect you can get Don to agree that is what his body language says.)
Boagie- Posey wants to win, when winning is no longer an option he likely takes it down a notch. He doesn't see the need to pad his stats, that's why I like the guy. And, I would be very surprised if Bochy and/or Sabean didn't tell him to treat the rest of the games like they're exhibition. That's not to say Posey isnt trying at all, I just don't think he's 100% in the game. All of which I'm totally fine with. Imagine the fan backlash if Posey blew out his knee in a game against the Cubs or Marlins.
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DFA'd
Aug 13, 2013 17:12:24 GMT -5
Post by sharksrog on Aug 13, 2013 17:12:24 GMT -5
Mark -- Not reading body language at all, DK. Just making the assumption that every day catchers tend to get tired at this point of the season, even more so when they play first base on their non catching days instead of actually resting. Rog -- I was just going to post that I didn't think Mark was referring to body language when I saw Mark himself had addressed it. Too often I think people see what they want to see -- whether it be body language or that someone else is reading body language, or a ton of other stuff. Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=general&thread=1953&page=2#13802#ixzz2btEBfP8s
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DFA'd
Aug 13, 2013 17:18:37 GMT -5
Post by sharksrog on Aug 13, 2013 17:18:37 GMT -5
Rog -- I am usually intrigued when someone attempts to read the mind of another. What makes you think this, Boagie? (Although I suspect you can get Don to agree that is what his body language says.) Boagie- Posey wants to win, when winning is no longer an option he likely takes it down a notch. Rog -- How do you know this? Have you seen him quoted to that effect? I agree with you that he wouldn't say so even if he know, but I have to ask again, how do you know this? Boagie -- He doesn't see the need to pad his stats, that's why I like the guy. Rog -- When a guy pads his stats, it usually helps his team score runs. The more runs a team scores, the better its chance of winning. I'm just guessing on this one, but I'd guess that Buster wants to win no matter what the larger context. Boagie -- And, I would be very surprised if Bochy and/or Sabean didn't tell him to treat the rest of the games like they're exhibition. Rog -- And I would be quite surprised if they did. It is possible for a player to relax too much and still get injured, right? But why WOULD they tell him to treat regular season games as exhibition? Wouldn't the safer thing be to just not play him? Boagie -- That's not to say Posey isnt trying at all, I just don't think he's 100% in the game. Rog -- But you have no way of knowing one way or the other. One thing I have noticed is that Buster seems to be showing more signs of frustration than usual. Why not? He has more to be frustrated about. Boagie -- All of which I'm totally fine with. Imagine the fan backlash if Posey blew out his knee in a game against the Cubs or Marlins. Rog -- The only way to avoid that risk is to just not play him. Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=general&thread=1953&page=2#ixzz2btEh91gU
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DFA'd
Aug 13, 2013 18:33:46 GMT -5
Post by Islandboagie on Aug 13, 2013 18:33:46 GMT -5
Boagie- Posey wants to win, when winning is no longer an option he likely takes it down a notch.
Rog -- How do you know this? Have you seen him quoted to that effect? I agree with you that he wouldn't say so even if he know, but I have to ask again, how do you know this?
Boagie- I don't know for sure, that's just my opinion. The only evidence I have is that he usually locks in down the stretch during a pennant race. Or at least that's what he did in 2010, 2012 and briefly this season while we were still within striking distance. Again this is just another instance where I think there's more depth to a player than just his career average numbers.
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DFA'd
Aug 13, 2013 18:44:50 GMT -5
Post by Islandboagie on Aug 13, 2013 18:44:50 GMT -5
Boagie -- That's not to say Posey isnt trying at all, I just don't think he's 100% in the game.
Rog -- But you have no way of knowing one way or the other.
Boagie- You're correct I dont.
I have an over/under for you...have you uddered that assinine phrase this season over or under your career average of 500 times a season? I'd probably guess over, but you're the self proclaimed analytic genius on this board, you tell me.
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DFA'd
Aug 13, 2013 18:55:16 GMT -5
Post by Islandboagie on Aug 13, 2013 18:55:16 GMT -5
Boagie...have you uddered that assinine phrase
Boagie- of course I mean uttered*
Not the first or last time Rog's comments remind me of lactating cow tits.
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DFA'd
Aug 14, 2013 6:39:12 GMT -5
Post by sharksrog on Aug 14, 2013 6:39:12 GMT -5
Boagie- I don't know for sure, that's just my opinion. The only evidence I have is that he usually locks in down the stretch during a pennant race. Or at least that's what he did in 2010, 2012 and briefly this season while we were still within striking distance. Rog -- Not every player performs the same each season. In fact, in the long run NO player does. You're just guessing here. I'm not saying you're wrong. I'm simply saying you really don't have a solid basis for your opinion, and it is just about as likely to be wrong as it is to be right. Boagie -- Again this is just another instance where I think there's more depth to a player than just his career average numbers. Rog -- What is the added depth here? That Buster quits when the going gets tough? That he can turn it on and off whenever he wants and just slides even as a team could certainly use his leadership to reverse a tough season? When Buster stopped hitting, the Giants had just won 5 of 6 games. Did Buster suddenly decide that even if the Giants kept winning 83% of their games, the season was over? Again, I'm not saying you're wrong. I don't think any of us can know for sure. I simply don't see much evidence to back up your claim. Buster just decided to stop hitting right after the Giants won five or six, right? Despite one key home run, he had a tough postseason last year. He suddenly decded the games weren't all that important, right? You're using circumstantial evidence that doesn't have consistency. For Buster's sake, I hope the Giants continue to play well every season. If not, it sounds as if his career will falter, just as Ernie Banks' did. And given his .244 average in postseason, he'd better not play more in the postseason, lest he become known as a postseason choker. In fact, I guess we can say that Buster's career is doomed. If the Giants don't play well, he won't hit. And if they do play well, his inexplicable lack of caring in the postseason will be exposed. Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=general&thread=1953&page=2#13824#ixzz2bwRvNzPI
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DFA'd
Aug 14, 2013 6:51:11 GMT -5
Post by sharksrog on Aug 14, 2013 6:51:11 GMT -5
Boagie- Posey wants to win, when winning is no longer an option he likely takes it down a notch. Rog -- Of COURSE he does. And every team wants a guy who quits when the going gets tough. Buster is in his 4th season. In two of those, including last year, the Giants went to the postseason, both times winning the World Series. In 1955, Willie Mays was in his 4th season. In two of those, including the previous season, the Giants made the World Series, including winning it the previous season. Yet in 1955 the Giants wound up in third place, 18.5 games back of the Dodgers. So Willie began mailing it in. In fact, the Giants probably told him to save himself for another season. And Willie did indeed mail it in, hitting only 51 home runs. And in September, when the Giants were virtually mathematically eliminated pretty much all month, Willie really eased off the gas, hitting just .396 with 11 home runs. Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=general&thread=1953&page=2#ixzz2bwVrk8IK
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DFA'd
Aug 14, 2013 6:52:51 GMT -5
Post by sharksrog on Aug 14, 2013 6:52:51 GMT -5
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DFA'd
Aug 14, 2013 7:00:29 GMT -5
Post by sharksrog on Aug 14, 2013 7:00:29 GMT -5
Boagie -- That's not to say Posey isnt trying at all, I just don't think he's 100% in the game. Rog -- But you have no way of knowing one way or the other. Boagie- You're correct I dont. I have an over/under for you...have you uddered that assinine phrase this season over or under your career average of 500 times a season? I'd probably guess over, but you're the self proclaimed analytic genius on this board, you tell me. Rog -- Here's one difference between us, Boagie. When you share an opinion, often you have little to back it up -- sort of like when Don reads body language. When I share an opinion, I usually have a pretty good backup for it. I think you're blowing circumstantial evidence out of proportion here. Remember two years ago when Don told us Buster seemed to have lost his power? By the way, I may have been wrong about Buster myself. I said that if he hit 15-20 homers a season he would become an All-Star; that if he hit 20-25 homers per year, he would become a perennial All-Star; and that if he hit 25-30, he would become a Hall of Famer. The way Buster has played thus far in his career -- even including the past three weeks when he's mailed it in -- if he continues, he has good chance of making the Hall with "just" 20-25 homers a season. Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=general&thread=1953&page=2#ixzz2bwZH47Gm
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DFA'd
Aug 14, 2013 11:21:54 GMT -5
Post by Islandboagie on Aug 14, 2013 11:21:54 GMT -5
Boagie- I don't know for sure, that's just my opinion. The only evidence I have is that he usually locks in down the stretch during a pennant race. Or at least that's what he did in 2010, 2012 and briefly this season while we were still within striking distance.
Rog -- Not every player performs the same each season. In fact, in the long run NO player does. You're just guessing here. I'm not saying you're wrong.
I'm simply saying you really don't have a solid basis for your opinion, and it is just about as likely to be wrong as it is to be right.
Boagie- Opinions don't need facts to back them up, that's why they're just opinions.
But here's another fact for you -- Posey has already been instructed to swipe tag at home plate rather than blocking the plate. Do you think Posey was instructed to swipe tag because they would win more or because they wanted to make sure Posey keeps himself out of harms way? So we already have indisputable evidence that Sabean, Bochy AND Posey are taking precautions to preserve Posey's health over giving 100%. Why do you think anything has changed now that they're out of contention?
Based on this, I believe its you who is guessing here. I'm basing it on evidence that Sabean, Bochy and Posey has given us. You're basing yours on a retired player who hasn't played baseball in 40 years.
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DFA'd
Aug 16, 2013 1:23:26 GMT -5
Post by sharksrog on Aug 16, 2013 1:23:26 GMT -5
Boagie- I don't know for sure, that's just my opinion. The only evidence I have is that he usually locks in down the stretch during a pennant race. Or at least that's what he did in 2010, 2012 and briefly this season while we were still within striking distance. Rog -- Not every player performs the same each season. In fact, in the long run NO player does. You're just guessing here. I'm not saying you're wrong. I'm simply saying you really don't have a solid basis for your opinion, and it is just about as likely to be wrong as it is to be right. Boagie- Opinions don't need facts to back them up, that's why they're just opinions. But here's another fact for you -- Posey has already been instructed to swipe tag at home plate rather than blocking the plate. Do you think Posey was instructed to swipe tag because they would win more or because they wanted to make sure Posey keeps himself out of harms way? So we already have indisputable evidence that Sabean, Bochy AND Posey are taking precautions to preserve Posey's health over giving 100%. Why do you think anything has changed now that they're out of contention? Based on this, I believe its you who is guessing here. I'm basing it on evidence that Sabean, Bochy and Posey has given us. You're basing yours on a retired player who hasn't played baseball in 40 years. Rog -- Boagie, your original comment was "I think Buster has unconsciously mailed it in for this season." Now you're using the Giants' telling Buster to sweep tag on plays at the plate as evidence that he has unconsciously mailed it in for this season? You're right that an opinion doesn't need facts to back it up, that's it simply an opinion. But which of these two opinions do you think are more likely to be right? 1. I think the sun will come up in the West tomorrow morning. I just have a feeling. 2. I think the sun will rise in the East tomorrow morning. It has done so for all of recorded history, and it would take a nearly impossible solar system incident to change it. If we want our opinions to carry much weight, we need to be prepared to back them up with facts and logic. Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=general&thread=1953&page=2#13838#ixzz2c6tM6UZ2
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DFA'd
Aug 16, 2013 1:26:21 GMT -5
Post by sharksrog on Aug 16, 2013 1:26:21 GMT -5
Boagie -- So we already have indisputable evidence that Sabean, Bochy AND Posey are taking precautions to preserve Posey's health over giving 100%. Why do you think anything has changed now that they're out of contention? Rog -- I agree with you that it is unlikely that the Giants are encouraging Buster to take more risk now that the team is out of contention. But how does that indicate that Buster has subconsciously mailed it in? Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=general&thread=1953&page=2#ixzz2c6vMtgrP
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DFA'd
Aug 18, 2013 14:25:30 GMT -5
Post by allenreed on Aug 18, 2013 14:25:30 GMT -5
Well, any notions that Sanchez is a better catcher than Posey should have been put to rest today. A catcher's interference for starters, followed by a passed ball on a pitch that Sanchez wasn't ready for, then lost when it got by him, allowing all runners to advance two bases. Say what you will about Buster, but he does manage to look up when the pitch is coming in.
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Post by rxmeister on Aug 18, 2013 16:56:10 GMT -5
Especially disappointing when you consider what a good day he had at the plate, with a single, double and incredibly, TWO walks. It's ok for a player to make mistakes, and that goes doubly for a young player, but the ones he makes are just inexcusable.
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DFA'd
Aug 18, 2013 23:03:16 GMT -5
Post by dk on Aug 18, 2013 23:03:16 GMT -5
Well, any notions that Sanchez is a better catcher than Posey should have been put to rest today. A catcher's interference for starters, followed by a passed ball on a pitch that Sanchez wasn't ready for, then lost when it got by him, allowing all runners to advance two bases. Say what you will about Buster, but he does manage to look up when the pitch is coming in. dkPosey has had catcher interference called on him several times...did you see the recent wild pitch while Posey was catching...Posey ducked his head and body and stabbed at the ball...errors happen to everyone, butm I never have seen Sanchez duck.....outside of those two plays, I thought Sanchez did a very good job of framing and blocking balls in the dirt...
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DFA'd
Aug 18, 2013 23:06:01 GMT -5
Post by dk on Aug 18, 2013 23:06:01 GMT -5
Not reading body language at all, DK. Just making the assumption that every day catchers tend to get tired at this point of the season, even more so when they play first base on their non catching days instead of actually resting. dk..I would assume that when you say he looks tired, you were reading his body language..
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Post by rxmeister on Aug 19, 2013 9:06:35 GMT -5
How many times has Posey had catcher's interference called on him, DK? Some numbers to back up that assertion, please. The last FOUR times a Giants' catcher has been called for CI, it's been Hector Sanchez, and that's an incredible stat for a backup catcher that's been out for most of the year.
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DFA'd
Aug 19, 2013 11:06:32 GMT -5
Post by dk on Aug 19, 2013 11:06:32 GMT -5
How many times has Posey had catcher's interference called on him, DK? Some numbers to back up that assertion, please. The last FOUR times a Giants' catcher has been called for CI, it's been Hector Sanchez, and that's an incredible stat for a backup catcher that's been out for most of the year. dk..since Hector has only made 4 fielding errors (Other errors were on throws), than he must be trying to get too big a jump on guys trying to steal...I have never seen that stat except for 2011(?)..the odd thing is that certain batters have a multiple of these called when they are batting (Carl Crawford..mucho)..probably has a late swing or something....however getting back to Hector he was 2 for 3 and I believe he had a couple of walks...and the box score says there were 2 caught stealing...and you want to dump the guy......that WP could have been a cross-up by the pitcher....
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