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Post by klaiggeb on Jul 4, 2013 11:18:17 GMT -5
At the 1/2 way, a number of things are abundantly clear to me.
1-All the breaks we got last year, we are NOT getting this year
2-Though the injury bug hits every team, we've not gotten just the bug, but the entire hive.
3-(and this is my main point)
IF... IF we have plans of getting back to the world series next year (or even this year), the ENTIRE starting staff has to be re built. It has to be. Period.
Cain and Bumgarner don't go anywhere, but, we have to, and I mean HAVE TO add 2 more quality starters.
Let's face facts; our starting staff has gone to being considered one of, if not THE best, to one of, if not THE worst in the league.
And the ONLY reason we're not the worst, is Matty and Madison.
So how do we do that? How do we rebuild a staff with NOTHING near ready at the minor league level.
1-Reasearch by Sabean and crew for starters, finding young guys who are on the cusp, or who have really good shots at being top of the rotation guys.
2-Once the research is done, Brian makes a decision as to which team would be willing to deal those players, and Sabean then plays one or 2 of the few chips that he has with which to deal.
As I posted before, the ONLY quality chips (outside of Matty and Madison) are:
Pablo
Posey
Romo
Pence(this year only)
2A----Of those chips, I'd likely move any or all of them with the exception of Posey.
Though his defense behind the plate is boarding on what I call disgusting, he is a very, very potent bat, and frankly I'm leaning towards Don's suggestion of getting him out from behind the plate, and onto the field.
Once again last night his INABILITY to block a ball moved a runner into scoring position.
His technique is sloppy, and I don't see it getting much better.
No one, and I mean NO ONE has mentioned what I'd consider... CONSIDER doing; moving him to 3B.
He's a former SS, so he understands play on that side of the field
He's demonstrated soft hands at 1B
He's a heady, smart player who might be slow afoot, but he's got quick feet. Brooks Robinson couldn't get out of his own way but had quick hands and feet.
I think Buster could make the move equal to or better than Pablo did.
Moving Pablo, I contend, would be relatively easy.
Someone would be willing to pay and pay DEARLY for Pablo's bat slump or no slump.
I would NOT move him to the NL west unless the deal was so good I couldn't refuse it. And that deal is not likely to present itself.
2B---It is my opinion that Romo has reached and passed the apex of his career. I'm with Branch Rickey on this one; trade a player BEFORE rather than after he's obviously done.
I think Romo can and still will be effective, but the days of his consistent dominance are gone.
3-Smaller chips that we have are:
Affeldt
Belt
Crawford
It is hard to find a SS who can do what Crawford can and will do for us, so I'd likely not move him.
I would use Crawford, Posey, Pence, Bumgarner and Cain as the foundations of the team I'd be trying to put together.
Everyone else is is moveable.
Affeldt is flat out gone if I'm offered a decent deal, Not that he's not a good reliever, he still is.
But remember, I'm talking 'chips' that we have to play.
Belt is an enigma. On the one hand, he is a really good defensive 1Bman with the POTENTIAL, IMHO, to hit 20-25 HRs, and hit in the mid to high .270's.
Those guys don't come along everyday.
I'd consider moving him, and doing what Don suggested, moving Posey to 1B IF we were to come up, again, with the right deal for young players, one of whom would be a catcher.
Now understand this;
I'm NOT advocating all of these moves. I'm ONLY suggesting that IF I RAN THE CIRCUS,
1-The starting staff MUST BE RE BUILT
2-Pablo is the chip I'd move first becacus he'd bring the most in return.
Of course moving Pablo would enrage the fans...a point about which, if I'm the GM, I give no weight what-so-ever.
Some of these moves could be made now, and likely should be made now, because as I said, I simply don't see this group of starters being good enough to get us back to the world series, or even to win the west.
boly
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Post by allenreed on Jul 4, 2013 11:57:59 GMT -5
I agree with you on rebuilding the starting staff. Lincecum and Zito have got to go. I'd give Gaudin the rest of the year to earn a spot as the fifth starter, amd I'd look to sign a FA or two when the time comes.
If something became available prior to that. I'd certainly look at it. I'd be shopping Pablo, Timmy, Zito and Affeldt to see what I could get.
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Post by sharksrog on Jul 4, 2013 22:50:58 GMT -5
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Post by sharksrog on Jul 4, 2013 23:02:54 GMT -5
So how do we do that? How do we rebuild a staff with NOTHING near ready at the minor league level. 1-Reasearch by Sabean and crew for starters, finding young guys who are on the cusp, or who have really good shots at being top of the rotation guys. 2-Once the research is done, Brian makes a decision as to which team would be willing to deal those players, and Sabean then plays one or 2 of the few chips that he has with which to deal. As I posted before, the ONLY quality chips (outside of Matty and Madison) are: Pablo Posey Romo Pence(this year only) Rog -- Unless one gets quite lucky, he either has to take older pitchers in free agency, rental pitchers, or become a seller and give up quality players with top value. Sandoval and Romo come closest to fitting the bill, but Pablo is in a horrible slump, and the bullpen has been wavering. A team in bad need of a closer/top set up type would be most apt to give up the young pitcher for Sergio. Pablo would probably bring the most, since he is under team control for another season. But how much can the Giants get for them in the way of starting pitching compared to how much their loss will cost? Pence doesn't bring a lot this season, since he would be a rental player. It is highly unlikely the Giants will be able to acquire two quality starters. Maybe one if they're lucky and hope that they can form a nice rotation from among the five candidates to back up Bumgarner and Cain. Especially given that they need another outfielder and will likely try to pick up another reliever or two, the Giants will likely need to rely on the six starters they presently have. The one thing the Giants have going for them is Brian Sabean's trade deadline history. He will likely need to pull off one or two of his better deals if the Giants go in this direction. At least for now, I think acquiring two quality starting pitchers is almost out of the reasonable question. Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=general&thread=1878&page=1#ixzz2Y8jHB6u4 |
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Post by sharksrog on Jul 4, 2013 23:05:30 GMT -5
Boly -- No one, and I mean NO ONE has mentioned what I'd consider... CONSIDER doing; moving him to 3B. Rog -- Actually, Boly, I've been suggesting that for two or three years now -- although it was as a secondary position for now and perhaps a primary one later in his career. A few years ago before the Giants (and his weight) decided Pablo couldn't catch, I suggested Buster backing up Pablo at third and Pablo backing up Buster behind the plate. Too bad that concept didn't work out. It would have been DYNAMITE! Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=general&thread=1878&page=1#ixzz2Y8lsEj4m |
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Post by sharksrog on Jul 4, 2013 23:08:15 GMT -5
Boly -- Some of these moves could be made now, and likely should be made now, because as I said, I simply don't see this group of starters being good enough to get us back to the world series, or even to win the west. Rog -- The Giants likely will need to do it with what they have now and one or two deals by Brian. I just don't think they have the goods to acquire two quality pitchers without weakening their future and/or other positions too much. I do have faith in Sabean, but, MAN, that's asking a lot, lot, LOT! Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=general&thread=1878&page=1#ixzz2Y8mdfHid |
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Post by Islandboagie on Jul 5, 2013 2:04:02 GMT -5
I have to agree with Rog here. I'd love to upgrade all our weaknesses but trading away Lincecum, Zito, and Sandoval while we have nothing on the horizon as far as near-ready prospects would be creating more holes on our roster, not improving the team. Furthermore Lincecum and Zito have been pitching fine recently, and Sandoval is likely to find his timing soon.
What I see happening is the fans are upset and are just pointing fingers at the usual suspects.
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Post by sharksrog on Jul 5, 2013 9:48:02 GMT -5
Back on June 19th, the Giants were three games over .500. If they were still three games over (instead of 6 games under), they would be in first place. So while it wouldn't solve all of the Giants' multiple problems, let's see how they have gone 2-11 since June 19th.
The answer is pretty easy: They've scored two runs a game for 13 games. The pitching has given up 51 runs in those 13 games, which is actually pretty good -- especially considering extra innings.
So to solve what's wrong with the Giants RIGHT now, they need hitting. It could come from the following sources:
. Pablo Sandoval is 1 for 30 since returning from a significant foot injury. His history is to return slowly from injury, but as he showed in his 3-homer game to kick off last year's World Series, he can bounce back.
. Marco Scutaro has seen his average drop from .333 to .312 during these past 13 games. Was the slump caused by his injured finger? (He went 4 for 8 in the first two games after his return.) Or has he simply been in a slump similar to the one that saw him hitting .111 7 games into the season?
. Brandon Crawford has seen his average fall from .288 to .262. Is it his hand injury, or simply a slump? Either way, will he break out soon?
. Angel Pagan is gone, perhaps for the season. This has made an everday player of both Gregor Blanco and Andres Torres, whose role for the season was supposed to be as platoon players. Blanco reached .300 on June 22nd, but has fallen back to .274. Torres' average has stayed in the same .260's range, but he's hitting only .200 against right-handers.
Early in the season the problem was that the Giants had only one good starter (Madison Bumgarner). They couldn't field the ball. Scutaro and Torres in particular seemed jinxed. Later the bullpen floundered.
But if we include the July returns of first Chad Gaudin and then Ryan Vogelsong, the Giants will have four improving starters to complement Bumgarner, and Barry Zito helped carry them early.
The fielding has straightened itself out. The bullpen has improved as the current losing streak has gone on, and should continue to improve with the return of Santiago Casilla and the trickle down effect of the starters' return.
With regard to the losing streak itself, nine of the 13 games have been on the road.
It appears three things need to change from where they are RIGHT NOW:
. The injured players need to get back (as expected in all cases except Pagan).
. The hitters need to hit again, something that may be come naturally as three important hitters -- Sandoval, Scutaro and Crawford -- recover further from their injuries.
. The Giants' weakness in the outfield will likely need shoring up at the trade deadline. This is their number one need at the trade table.
While many other teams focus on adding starting pitching, an expensive commodity right now, perhaps the Giants can find a way to sneak a starting outfielder from another team without giving up the south 40.
Or here's a creative idea for Brian Sabean. Since starting outfielders also don't grow on trees, maybe the solution is to cheaply add two more platoon outfielders. As the Giants have seen in left field with Blanco and Torres, one productive way to fill a starting spot is with two inexpensive platoon players.
No, I haven't studied the available platoon outfielders, but they're out there. If they were that valuable to other teams, they wouldn't be platooning.
Keep an eye on both ends of the pitching and hope for a miracle with a starting outfielder. As the Giants found out in 2011 though, adding even an All-Star level outfielder may not be enough.
So start looking right now for a platoon outfielder from each side of the plate. Return Blanco and Torres to the roles in which they were successful -- platooning. Most outfields have five players. Use one of them as an everyday starter, and use the other four to fill the final two spots with platoons.
Blanco and Torres can each play center field, so the two new platoon outfielders can be center fielders or corner players.
At the beginning of this post, I mostly wanted to show that filling that final outfield position should be the Giants' top priority. They should continue looking for that solid outfielder who somehow is affordable in terms of trading players. In order to keep the cost down, they should even be open to the idea of a rental player. A year ago, the Giants "rented" Marco Scutaro, and that turned out far better than expected.
But as the post has developed, I realized an idea that has recently become more recognized may be the doable alternative. If the Giants can't get one good player to complete the outfield, "build" him with two platoon players. With just three proven outfielders, there is room on the roster for two more.
So what to do when Pagan returns? Why not see what the short-term solution turns out to be, see how well it works, and be prepared to make a positive adjustment when Pagan is finally able to return?
The Giants now have three options available to complete the outfield:
. Somehow pick up an everyday outfielder who they are assured of beyond the end of 2013.
. Look for a solid rental player on the cheap -- an outfield version of Marco Scutaro.
. Build that final outfield spot they way it was built at the beginning of the season -- with two platoon players.
If the Giants will have enough with the return of Ryan Vogelsong to fill out their rotation, they should be able to afford to bolster the bullpen and fill that final starting outfield spot.
We'll have to see if they can pull it off, and if the rotation can truly take care of itself, but suddenly I feel better. In June, Bumgarner, Cain, Lincecum and Gaudin put up ERA's of 3.00, 3.10, 3.60 and 3.38.
Vogelsong pitched a 5 inning shutout before having to go on the DL with the finger injury suffered while batting. Barry Zito went 5.97 but has allowed two or fewer runs in three of his last four starts.
Given the present state of affairs, the Giants had four good starters in June, and Vogelsong might well have been a fifth if not for his injury.
Somehow fill that final outfield spot, and allow the rest of the team to find its way. The strategy keeps the future intact without giving up on repeating in 2013.
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Post by Islandboagie on Jul 5, 2013 10:42:21 GMT -5
Rog-As the Giants found out in 2011 though, adding even an All-Star level outfielder may not be enough.
Boagie- If he had actually performed like an All-Star the entire time we would have had a chance. But we didn't get what we paid for. We gave up a top prospect pitcher and got a shit stain in return.
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Post by allenreed on Jul 5, 2013 11:56:04 GMT -5
I have to agree with Rog here. I'd love to upgrade all our weaknesses but trading away Lincecum, Zito, and Sandoval while we have nothing on the horizon as far as near-ready prospects would be creating more holes on our roster, not improving the team. Furthermore Lincecum and Zito have been pitching fine recently, and Sandoval is likely to find his timing soon.
Allen That would depend on what you got for them. Pablo is a pretty big hole already. Timmy hasn't won since June 4th, and Zito has yet to win on the road. It's July 5th and he has yet to win a road game.
Together, Tim and Barry are 8-15, 4.55. Not alot of production for $42 million.
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Post by klaiggeb on Jul 5, 2013 13:11:27 GMT -5
Boly -- Cain and Bumgarner don't go anywhere, but, we have to, and I mean HAVE TO add 2 more quality starters.
Rog -- Aren't the Giants in trouble if this is the case? Where do they go to get not one but TWO quality starters?
---boly says---
Rog, I covered this.
Slump or no slump no one in their right mind DOESN'T expect fatso to hit. Thus, much like Matt Williams, Pablo is a big, big chip that can be moved with excellent return.
I'd do what San Diego did; move the "Big Name" (Adrian Gonzalez), for top level pitching prospects.
We'd have to bit the bullet for a year... maybe two, depending upon whom we got in return, but we have to face facts: Our starting staff MUST be re built, and re built with young arms.
boly
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Post by klaiggeb on Jul 5, 2013 13:13:41 GMT -5
Boly -- No one, and I mean NO ONE has mentioned what I'd consider... CONSIDER doing; moving him to 3B.
Rog -- Actually, Boly, I've been suggesting that for two or three years now -- although it was as a secondary position for now and perhaps a primary one later in his career.
A few years ago before the Giants (and his weight) decided Pablo couldn't catch, I suggested Buster backing up Pablo at third and Pablo backing up Buster behind the plate. Too bad that concept didn't work out. It would have been DYNAMITE!
--boly says---
And I contend it still WOULD be.
But I seriously doubt that the Giants would even consider that type of move.
But that said, I canNOT, simply CANNOT believe they are happy with his poor defensive technique.
What he is, is a very, very good hitter, and if moved out from behind the plate, would likely be a consistant .300+ hitter, with the power to hit between 20-30 HRs
boly
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Post by sharksrog on Jul 5, 2013 17:13:44 GMT -5
Slump or no slump no one in their right mind DOESN'T expect fatso to hit. Thus, much like Matt Williams, Pablo is a big, big chip that can be moved with excellent return. I'd do what San Diego did; move the "Big Name" (Adrian Gonzalez), for top level pitching prospects. We'd have to bit the bullet for a year... maybe two, depending upon whom we got in return, but we have to face facts: Our starting staff MUST be re built, and re built with young arms. Rog -- Not sure whom we replace Pablo with, and I'm not sure what his trade value is right now. Maybe to the right team, but everyone knows about his present slump, his history of not hitting after injuries (I'd have to look up how quickly he has usually bounced back.), and his weight issues. I can't see getting anywhere near the return for Pablo that they got for Matt Williams or the Padres got for Gonzalez. Even in the Williams trade, the Giants may have gotten lucky. I don't believe Jeff Kent was considered by the Giants to be the biggest piece they were receiving. I was looking at retooling rather than rebuilding. I'm not sure just how long the Giants' window lasts, although the young pitchers in Class and any prospects they pick up could also extend that window. The Giants almost certainly won't re-sign Tim Lincecum, but Ryan Vogelsong will almost surely be back. I would think Chad Gaudin will, as well. If they can count on that quartet, they could either add another starter or two via free agency and/or bring back Barry Zito for the final year of his pact. The Giants can likely keep a good starting staff without clogging up the arrival of their young Class A pitchers. There are different ways to go, and your more dramatic method may be better than mine. I would certainly be open to it if that turned out to be the best option. Perhaps Sandoval and a younger arm and/or Susac, Brown, Panik or Sanchez would bring an established arm or higher-level pitching prospect as well as someone who can take over for Sandoval at third. Heck, maybe the Giants need a shakeup, even for this season. Teams have made trades before that seemed initially to weaken their present, only to have things work out well both short- and long-term. Right now I'm leaning toward the inexpensive but ongoing method, but perhaps the Giants will find that the best and most important value will require a stronger expenditure. With all the potential needs and different directions they could choose to go, this month should be exciting. Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=general&thread=1878&page=1#12336#ixzz2YCroZoKl |
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Post by klaiggeb on Jul 5, 2013 18:05:38 GMT -5
Rog -- Not sure whom we replace Pablo with, and I'm not sure what his trade value is right now. Maybe to the right team, but everyone knows about his present slump, his history of not hitting after injuries (I'd have to look up how quickly he has usually bounced back.), and his weight issues.
I can't see getting anywhere near the return for Pablo that they got for Matt Williams or the Padres got for Gonzalez. Even in the Williams trade, the Giants may have gotten lucky. I don't believe Jeff Kent was considered by the Giants to be the biggest piece they were receiving.
I was looking at retooling rather than rebuilding. I'm not sure just how long the Giants' window lasts, although the young pitchers in Class and any prospects they pick up could also extend that window.
The Giants almost certainly won't re-sign Tim Lincecum, but Ryan Vogelsong will almost surely be back. I would think Chad Gaudin will, as well. If they can count on that quartet, they could either add another starter or two via free agency and/or bring back Barry Zito for the final year of his pact.
The Giants can likely keep a good starting staff without clogging up the arrival of their young Class A pitchers.
There are different ways to go, and your more dramatic method may be better than mine. I would certainly be open to it if that turned out to be the best option. Perhaps Sandoval and a younger arm and/or Susac, Brown, Panik or Sanchez would bring an established arm or higher-level pitching prospect as well as someone who can take over for Sandoval at third.
Heck, maybe the Giants need a shakeup, even for this season. Teams have made trades before that seemed initially to weaken their present, only to have things work out well both short- and long-term.
---boly says---
Rog, clearly we see fatso's value differently.
You seem to be putting a lot of emphasis on his slump. I contend that he has hit, and hit and hit, for average and for power.
His hand injuries were fluke things. Not like persistant hamstrings, or obliques.
No. I think he'll bring a pretty penny especially from an AL team that could use him to DH as well as play 1st and 3rd.
I'm not talking rebuilding anything EXCEPT the rotation, Rog. That's it. And I'm only looking for 2 starters, not 3.
I agree about Vogey. But still, he's 35.
Sabean has worked wonders (miracles?) since he's been here. No reason to think he's suddenly gotten stupid.
He'll find the right deal either now, or in the off season.
boly
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Post by sharksrog on Jul 6, 2013 9:44:00 GMT -5
Boly -- Rog, clearly we see fatso's value differently. You seem to be putting a lot of emphasis on his slump. I contend that he has hit, and hit and hit, for average and for power. Rog -- Up until this season, he was pretty much hitting at a Hall of Fame level. That said, he goes out of the strike zone WAY too often, which IMO makes him more likely to suffer a decline. The biggest issue with Pablo though is his health. If you're going to give up a lot for Pablo, you'd like to have him perform at a high level for quite a while. His health and contract status (eligible for free agency after 2014) make that a big question mark. Let's look at what the Giants gave up for Hunter Pence, who was also a year-plus away from free agency. They gave up Nate Schierholtz, who has improved this season but is still a platoon player whom the Phillies chose not to re-sign. They gave up a minor league pitcher who is likely of minor significance. They gave up Tommy Joseph, who was a good -- not VERY good -- catching prospect. Joseph is 10 days from turning 22, but he has only a .170 batting average this season in the minors (due in part to injury). Over his minor league career, he has struck out almost four times for every walk. The point is that it's tough to get a lot for a player who could part ways with you in a year-plus. Not rental player by today's definition, but more of a lease player when what you'd like to have is an "owned" player (locked up at a reasonable price for a fairly long period of time). In Pablo's case, you're a little less sure you will WANT him after that year-plus. What he's had is two REALLY good seasons (2009 and 2011), but he struggled in 2010 to the point where he wasn't in the postseason lineup a lot, and since 2011, he's fallen off (.789 OPS and now just .688 this season). Pablo says he knows he's got to lose weight in the not-too-distant future. In the meantime, he's gaining it. Two other problems exist if the Giants trade Pablo. First, they don't have anyone to adequately replace him. Second, he is one of only three Giants players who are considered middle of the order hitters. His loss would leave them with Posey and Pence, both of whom hit right-handed. Starting pitchers are a highly-valued commodity in today's game. When Tim Lincecum's stats are as good as half of them, we can see why. The Giants are said to be offering two pitching prospects themselves for Ricky Nolasco, who could be only a rental player, and who isn't a great pitcher anyway (3.85 ERA this season and 4.44 career). I agree with you that Brian has pulled off a lot of very good to excellent trades, particularly at the trade deadline. But which starting pitchers has he acquired via trade? The last was a decade ago in Sidney Ponson, who was a rental player who was almost done anyway. We have discussed the names out there, Boly. They're not very good. Scott Feldman was about as good as was out there, and he's already been traded. Feldman himself is having a good season this year (3.43), but his career ERA is 4.65. Hey, the Giants pulled off one of the biggest deadline trades last year with the Phillies (Pence). Maybe this year they'll get Cliff Lee, who IS an excellent pitcher. But I would think they would have to give up Pablo, Kyle Crick and at least two other high prospects to do so. Lee may not be available, and the Giants may not have enough to trade for him if he is. I agree with you that Brian has for the most part been a trade master. But to get TWO good pitchers is a high order, even with free agency. There aren't all that many of them, and the ones who fit the bill are rarely available. Apparently Sabean has already said he will give up two pitching prospects for a potential rent-a-player with a 4.44 ERA. After the Beltran fiasco, we can likely rest assured they aren't top prospects. But they're also probably not enough to get the job done, and the Giants could wind up netting nothing beyond this year if the trade does go through. His hand injuries were fluke things. Not like persistant hamstrings, or obliques. No. I think he'll bring a pretty penny especially from an AL team that could use him to DH as well as play 1st and 3rd. I'm not talking rebuilding anything EXCEPT the rotation, Rog. That's it. And I'm only looking for 2 starters, not 3. I agree about Vogey. But still, he's 35. Sabean has worked wonders (miracles?) since he's been here. No reason to think he's suddenly gotten stupid. He'll find the right deal either now, or in the off season. Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=general&thread=1878&page=1#12350#ixzz2YH3yjCaA |
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Post by allenreed on Jul 6, 2013 10:30:34 GMT -5
I'd think the Yankees would love to have Pablo (or at least they should). What they'd give for him is a whole different story. David Phelps? Ivan Nova? Dellin Betances?
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Post by sharksrog on Jul 6, 2013 14:10:32 GMT -5
Allen -- I'd think the Yankees would love to have Pablo (or at least they should). What they'd give for him is a whole different story. David Phelps? Ivan Nova? Dellin Betances? Rog -- I almost hate to hear Phelps and Betances even mentioned along with Pablo, but I would have an interest in Nova plus change. I wouldn't want to do it until the off-season though unless the Yankees threw in a good third baseman -- which I'm guessing from your comment they don't have or at least can't afford to give. The last big Giants trade of players at the big league level was Sanchez for Cabrera. Because of the re-emergence of Ryan Vogelsong, the Giants had uncharacteristic depth in the rotation. Giving up Sandoval would simply open up another hole. In fact, with six possible starters when Vogelsong returns, the Giants will surprisingly have some depth in the rotation. If the Giants wait until the winter, perhaps they can trade Pablo and sign a free agent replacement third baseman. Right now the best available in house is Tony Abreu, and Tony has a career .290 OBP. My first choice would be that Pablo would get serious about his weight. My second choice would be to trade him over the winter. I don't think it makes sense to trade from a position with no depth to acquire a player in a position of more depth -- unless perhaps the acquired player is MUCH better, and then why would the other team make the trade? Obviously it depends on the two prospects in question, but what do we think of the concept of trading two prospects for a rental pitcher in the form of Ricky Nolasco? I would probably be for it because it would keep Nolasco away from the Dodgers, and I'm almost positive losing the two prospects wouldn't be likely to hurt much. If the two prospects were likely to come back to haunt the Giants, I don't think Brian would trade them for a lame duck pitcher. Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=general&thread=1878&page=1#12353#ixzz2YIF43852 |
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Post by allenreed on Jul 6, 2013 16:37:36 GMT -5
Phelps started out horribly, but the Yankees (not exactly a big hitting bunch) are 8-4 in his last 12 starts. He's still got alot of learning to do, but he can do it. Right now, he's Lincecum except that he wins. I haven't heard that much about Betances, other than that he might be available, but since he ways 260, he can probably use Pablo's uniform pants. Of course Dellin is 6'8", while I'm not sure Pablo is even six feet.
Obviously, it's a long shot that Pablo will get serious about his weight. If he were going to do it, he would have done it by now.My idea would be to start shopping him now and keep shopping him, even if he begins to play better. He's not going to remain healthy, and he's not going to get fit.
I would look at this with more of an eye for the long term. I'm not giving up yet, but it's looking more and more (with the injuries and all) like this isn't going to be our year, and it may be time to do a little revamping. I'd certainly be looking in terms of Timmy not coming back, and probably (if it were my decision) Zito as well.
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Post by allenreed on Jul 6, 2013 18:43:41 GMT -5
Speaking of circus, batting out of order? Are you freakin' kidding me. Bochy should be fired over this. What a bonehead! All these people they have in the dugout, and they can't get the right hitter up there? Inexcusable. I've never seen that happen in even a Little League game. What an embarassment. Isn't this suppoded to be a professional team? Don't these guys do this for a living? This is only Bochy's 19 th year as a manager. You'd think he could have mastered filling out and submitting a lineup card by now. Maybe he should have the players sit in their batting order on the bench, so he knows who's supposed to bat next.
I guess Mattingly got his revenge for doing his U-Turn to the mound a few years ago, and being called on it by Bochy.
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Post by klaiggeb on Jul 7, 2013 9:47:19 GMT -5
Inexcusable. I've never seen that happen in even a Little League game. What an embarassment. Isn't this suppoded to be a professional team? Don't these guys do this for a living? This is only Bochy's 19 th year as a manager. You'd think he could have mastered filling out and submitting a lineup card by now. Maybe he should have the players sit in their batting order on the bench, so he knows who's supposed to bat next.
I guess Mattingly got his revenge for doing his U-Turn to the mound a few years ago, and being called on it by Bochy.
---boly says---
I read the reason in the paper today... something about an electronic clubhouse lineup.
Bochy took the blame, but I think he fell on his sword covering for a coach.
It's just one more in a long... long... long...LONG list of things that can't go wrong, but have gone wrong for what I'm now calling a cursed, 2013 team.
But as angry as I was at that, Allen, I was even more angry at Pence.
Runners on 2nd and 3rd NO ONE OUT, 2-1 count, and HE chases a pitch out of the strikezone, and grounds weakly to first.
That CANNOT
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Post by klaiggeb on Jul 7, 2013 9:50:39 GMT -5
FAT fingers hit the key again!!!! So I'll continue
THAT CANNOT happen!
It simply CANNOT.
Not 2-1
Not with no one out.
Not with your team in the bad funk they are in.
I go back to a statement I've made over and over again, but which doesn't seem important to many... these are PROFESSIONALS. Supposedly the best there are.
I expect a professional at bat in that situation.
As Kruk and Kuiper call it, they had "count leverage."
Look for a location.
Look for a pitch.
But do not, repeat DO NOT chase.
Pence commited a huge baseball sin.
He chased a bad pitch, and, until that third out, I considered it THE definining moment in the game, one I was pretty darned sure WOULD cost us the game.
Once again, I'm glad to be proven wrong.
boly
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Post by Islandboagie on Jul 7, 2013 11:09:59 GMT -5
We can agree here. Which is why i mentioned the idea of a Manny Ramirez type hitter to stick in the middle of our lineup. I love Pablo and Hunter, but they are free swingers, they don't work a count.
Don't think I'm ignorant on Manny, I dislike him as much as the next guy. But I didn't much like Pat Burrell or Edgar Renteria (among many others) either.
I was hoping Belt would develop into this type of hitter because he does have a decent eye. Unfortunately he doesn't know what to do once he gets into a good hitters count. This is why I've always been heavily critical of Muelens. How hard is it to explain to your hitters to let it fly on 2-0 and 3-1 counts. Too often I see them taking half-hearted swings on good hitters counts. It's unacceptable.
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Post by klaiggeb on Jul 7, 2013 12:18:35 GMT -5
I was hoping Belt would develop into this type of hitter because he does have a decent eye. Unfortunately he doesn't know what to do once he gets into a good hitters count. This is why I've always been heavily critical of Muelens. How hard is it to explain to your hitters to let it fly on 2-0 and 3-1 counts. Too often I see them taking half-hearted swings on good hitters counts. It's unacceptable.
---boly says---
good point...no, GREAT point on Belt, Boagie. I couldn't agree more.
I never considered that Muelens might be part of the problem.
From what I've read, and the few guys I've played with that signed and played pro ball... they're a different breed in many cases.
You can tell them and tell them... and they're just going to do it their way.
I can't help but wonder if Brandon isn't one of them.
boly
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Post by sharksrog on Jul 7, 2013 12:28:01 GMT -5
Allen -- Right now, he's Lincecum except that he wins. Rog -- Actually, it is the Yankees and Giants that are winning. Phelps's won-loss record is better than Tim's primarily because he gets more run support -- more than a full run per nine innings, in fact. This is another example of what I mentioned in my last post. You don't seem to want to bother to look at the WHY'S. I knew the answer here with 90% certainty even before I looked it up. Why? Because apparently unlike you, I've looked up similar situations hundreds of times. Tim has yet to win a game this season in which he's given up more than one earned run. Phelps has won twice despite giving up four runs. Tim has lost three times when he yielded only two earned runs. David lost one game in which he yielded only one run, but he has given up four or more runs in each of his other losses. Are you seeing a pattern here? Do you see now why I say it is the TEAM that wins? Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=general&thread=1878&page=1#12366#ixzz2YNeb18RZ |
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Post by sharksrog on Jul 7, 2013 12:35:44 GMT -5
Rog-As the Giants found out in 2011 though, adding even an All-Star level outfielder may not be enough. Boagie- If he had actually performed like an All-Star the entire time we would have had a chance. Rog -- No player performs like an All-Star the entire time. Willie Mays is arguably the best all-around player ever, but he went through TONS of extended slumps. Boagie -- But we didn't get what we paid for. Rog -- Carlos was the Giants' best hitter while he played for them. If the Giants didn't get what they paid for, it was because of injury. Boagie -- We gave up a top prospect pitcher and got a shit stain in return. Rog -- The first part of your statement is correct. The second part isn't even close. By the way, Boagie, did you ever responded to the article that showed how hard Beltran worked to be able to return from serious injury -- even having surgery against the wishes of the Mets and perhaps placing his 7/$119 contract in jeopard? You called him a slacker, so I would hope you had the decency to respond. If you did so, I missed it, so perhaps you could give me the Readers' Digest version of your post. Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=general&thread=1878&page=1#ixzz2YNjgYOX8 |
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Post by allenreed on Jul 7, 2013 14:48:44 GMT -5
Don't think I'm ignorant on Manny, I dislike him as much as the next guy. But I didn't much like Pat Burrell or Edgar Renteria (among many others) either.
Allen- It has nothing to do with disliking Manny, though I can't stand the mangy looking SOB. It has to do with the integrity of the organization. After the Bonds debacle, you're going to bring another roid guy in here? And a three time loser like Ramirez? What does that say to your fan base? To your young fans? Basically it says your willing to cheat to win. Maybe honesty, integrity, and playing by the rules (not to mention the law) are outmoded concepts to many, but not to me.
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Post by Islandboagie on Jul 7, 2013 15:03:22 GMT -5
I might be wrong here, but didn't you support the acquisition of Miguel Tejada in 2011? Or at very least I don't recall the same sort of disgust for the idea. Did you have a hard time looking people in the eye after Melky was popped? Or when Mota took his "cough medicine"?
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Post by allenreed on Jul 7, 2013 15:04:38 GMT -5
Allen -- Right now, he's Lincecum except that he wins. Rog -- Actually, it is the Yankees and Giants that are winning. Phelps's won-loss record is better than Tim's primarily because he gets more run support -- more than a full run per nine innings, in fact. This is another example of what I mentioned in my last post. You don't seem to want to bother to look at the WHY'S. Allen- Thing is, do you want to fix the blame, or fix the problem? For whatever reason, Tim doesn't win. Not for three years now. Sometimes it may be due to no run support, but often it's simply because he doesn't pitch well. Now, is there a reason to expect that to change? I don't see one. You've said previously that you don't really see one. Maybe Tim is just unlucky. You're not naive enough to think that luck plays everyone the same, are you? |
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Post by allenreed on Jul 7, 2013 15:08:40 GMT -5
I might be wrong here, but didn't you support the acquisition of Miguel Tejada in 2011? Or at very least I don't recall the same sort of disgust for the idea. Did you have a hard time looking people in the eye after Melky was popped? Or when Mota took his "cough medicine"? Allen- I was actually disappointed about the acquisition of Tejada. I had no idea about Melky, and I was pleased that we didn't bring him back, although I would have cut him the day he was suspended. I would have cut Mota too. I'm afraid I have a zero tolerance policy on this issue, boag. |
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Post by sharksrog on Jul 7, 2013 15:15:28 GMT -5
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