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Post by sharksrog on May 11, 2013 14:08:47 GMT -5
Carlos Beltran has been put down multiple times on this board. See what you think after reading this USA Today article by Bob Nightengale:
Nightengale: Beltran doesn't want 'to be known as just a player'
Bob Nightengale, USA TODAY Sports11:52 p.m. EDT May 9, 2013
Story Highlights
Carlos Beltran visited a cancer patient for two hours
Beltran: "I want to help kids get an education, to help them achieve things"
Beltran is a seven-time All-Star who is hitting .302 this season
ST. LOUIS -- Carlos Beltran is sitting in the hospital lobby, smothering his cough, wiping his nose, trying to get over a nasty flu bug.
He walks upstairs, turns the corner, enters the hospital room, and there is a balding 15-year-old boy, Jason, who shrieks at the sight.
"Oh, my God," he says, "it's you. It's you!"
Jason has cancer. So does the 11-year-old boy down the hall. And the 13-year-old girl next door. And the 5-year-old boy one flight up. And Josh Nelson, a 17-year-old boy, waiting for a new kidney.
Beltran, despite feeling cruddy for the last few days, is visiting the Cardinal Glennon Children's Medical Center, spending two hours with young cancer patients before last week's St. Louis Cardinals game.
"I know kids look up to me," says Beltran, the Cardinals' All-Star right fielder, "but I don't want to be known as just a baseball player. God gave me the opportunity and blessed me to accomplish good things in this sport. But if you don't do something with it, and help people with blessings you received, what does that really mean?
"I want to be a good person, to help kids get an education, to help them achieve meaningful things. That's what this is all about, and it means everything to me. When you help people you don't even know, it makes you feel like you really accomplished something.
"There comes a time in everyone's career when baseball is over. There should never be a time when you stop helping people, and I never will."
Beltran, 36, a seven-time All-Star who is hitting .302 this season, sits quietly in the clubhouse each day and never appears comfortable standing in front of cameras or talking about his exploits to reporters.
Yet when it's time to talk about underprivileged kids and education, he has all day.
He donated more than $250,000 to the Harlem RBI (Reviving baseball in the inner cities) program, was active in after-school programs and worked with kids trying to speak English.
"I believe in education so much, wanting kids to understand how important it is in their lives," Beltran says. "If you can play sports and make a living out of it, great. But it still doesn't replace education. That's in my heart. It will always be in my heart.
"Your baseball skills go away. Your education will stay with you forever."
It was Beltran, not the Cardinals, who asked what he could do to help in the community. It might be his last season with the Cardinals, with no idea about his future after his contract expires in October, but he certainly wasn't going to leave this city without making an impact.
Beltran spent his off-day Thursday speaking an hour to a group of 45 Latino students at St. Cecilia Parish in St. Louis, stressing the importance of education and hard work. He is sponsoring eight college scholarships this year for students in the St. Louis area. He is purchasing three dozen tickets for underprivileged students to attend Saturday's Hispanic Heritage Day game against the Colorado Rockies, along with a suite for another 35 students in July.
"As good as a player that Carlos has been throughout his career," Cardinals teammate Matt Holliday says, "he's even a better person. He's unbelievable. He tries to get everyone involved."
Beltran's pride and joy is the non-profit academy he founded two years ago in Puerto Rico, a high school for 140 kids to develop their education and baseball skills, with his first graduating class this month.
Beltran says he fronted $2 million for the academy. Now, there will be 35 kids graduating with a high school diploma, and every one, Beltran says, will play baseball for a U.S. college or university.
"To me, that's what this is all about," Beltran says. "It's not about creating professional ballplayers. It's about creating opportunities for education.
"If no one plays professional baseball, that's OK. If they go on and have professional careers in whatever they want to do in life, well, that's a dream come true."
Beltran's quest for a World Series championship ring can wait. He has a few graduations to attend.
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Post by Islandboagie on May 11, 2013 23:45:13 GMT -5
What a selfless act for Beltran to go to a hospital full of sick children with the flu bug.
It reminds me of when he infected our clubhouse with the losing bug.
We've been talking about chemistry and being a good teammate a lot recently...
Do you think being the new guy and trying to bribe the defending world series manager for his uniform number is trying to fit in with chemistry? No, it's saying "I'm Carlos Beltran, and I'm going to use my bloated contract to come in and have things my way, because I matter more than this team does. He's a prick, he'd fit in perfectly with the Dodgers, not the Giants.
Furthermore, we've already established on this board that Bob Nightengale is a moron.
"I know kids look up to me" is the telling phrase in this story. It's all about how he helped them, and how he donated this, and that. the complete focus of this article is on what a swell guy Beltran is, no mention of how the kids strength to keep fighting inspired him in his life.
The only true honorable people in this article are the children who still have a positive attitude about life. It is ego-maniacs like Beltran who should be honored to be in a room with them, not the other way around.
If you took even half of the spirit these kids had, and put it into Beltran, maybe that idiot would have a World Series ring by now. Beltran doesn't get it, clearly Bob Nightengale doesn't get it, and after seeing you post this as some sort of vindication of Beltran, I wonder if you get it either.
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Post by sharksrog on May 12, 2013 0:33:52 GMT -5
Boagie -- What a selfless act for Beltran to go to a hospital full of sick children with the flu bug. Rog -- Do you honestly think Carlos infected anyone? Boagie -- It reminds me of when he infected our clubhouse with the losing bug. Rog -- A bit of a harsh comment without any factual backup. By all accounts, Carlos was looked up to in the clubhouse. Boagie -- We've been talking about chemistry and being a good teammate a lot recently... Do you think being the new guy and trying to bribe the defending world series manager for his uniform number is trying to fit in with chemistry? No, it's saying "I'm Carlos Beltran, and I'm going to use my bloated contract to come in and have things my way, because I matter more than this team does. Rog -- Paying a teammate or manager to take over his number is fairly common. Bochy himself wore three different numbers as a player. How much attachment he had to #15 we don't know. But it wasn't enough not to give the number to Carlos. Apparently Rafael Furcal was attached to the number 15. He still wears it on the Cardinals, while Carlos has taken #3. Boagie -- He's a prick, he'd fit in perfectly with the Dodgers, not the Giants. Rog -- You don't really know if Carlos is a prick or not. If he truly were, don't you think he would have blown off those kids, especially if he hadn't been feeling well? And if he were a prick, do you think he would have been respected in the Giants' clubhouse. You say I don't acknowledge chemistry because it can't be measured statistically. In reality, I have been studying it for nearly four decades. But because it can't (or at lesst hasn't been) measured statisticaly, I can't really say how much or how little impact it has. Now here you go acting as if you know all about Carllos Beltran, when I don't believe you truly do. For example, did you know that Carlos wept the day he was traded from the Kansas City Royals (his original team) to the Houston Astros? Did you know how highly he speaks fo the St. Louis Cardinals fans? Did you know that it has been written about Carlos: "Above the fray, Beltran continues to have this quiet elegance about him as the twilight of his career gradually grows larger on the horizon." Not that it has anything to do with his character, but did you know Carlos' 87% stealing success rate is the highest of any player ever with 300 or more stolen bases? Again, it may or may not have anything to do with his character, but did you know Carlos is one of the best postseason players of all time? Carlos has a 1.242 career posteason OPS in 151 plate appearances. A while back you talked about how Carlos wasn't a gamer, sitting when he shouldn't have. I posted about how he has fought injury, even going so far as to have a surgery that wasn't recommended by the Mets and which could have placed his contract in jeopardy had it failed. Even though Carlos put up a .920 OPS for the Giants, you have continually criticized him as a Giant. Some guys just seem particularly biased against a player or players. For Don it has been Buster Posey and Tim Lincecum. For Allen it has been Barry Bonds, Jonathan Sanchez and Pablo Sandoval. I thought you were above such a thing. Furthermore, we've already established on this board that Bob Nightengale is a moron. Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=general&thread=1705&page=1#10705#ixzz2T3GrYDNY |
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Post by sharksrog on May 12, 2013 0:40:29 GMT -5
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Post by Islandboagie on May 12, 2013 8:29:18 GMT -5
You say I don't acknowledge chemistry because it can't be measured statistically. In reality, I have been studying it for nearly four decades. But because it can't (or at lesst hasn't been) measured statisticaly, I can't really say how much or how little impact it has.
Now here you go acting as if you know all about Carllos Beltran, when I don't believe you truly do.
Boagie- I've been studying Carlos Beltran for nearly two decades.
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Post by Islandboagie on May 12, 2013 8:41:15 GMT -5
Boagie -- What a selfless act for Beltran to go to a hospital full of sick children with the flu bug.
Rog -- Do you honestly think Carlos infected anyone?
Boagie- Do you honestly believe that's smart to enter a hospital with sick kids while you have the flu? The flu could kill a child in that condition. I'd think someone who truely wanted to help would likely have put off his visit until they were sure they weren't contagious. Nightengale said Carlos was sitting in the lobby smothering his cough and wiping his nose, clearly Beltran was in no condition to be among sick children. I really don't know how else to explain logic to you.
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Post by Islandboagie on May 12, 2013 8:57:27 GMT -5
Rog -- Paying a teammate or manager to take over his number is fairly common. Bochy himself wore three different numbers as a player. How much attachment he had to #15 we don't know. But it wasn't enough not to give the number to Carlos.
Boagie- I understand that, but when you want to fit in like Carlos said he wanted to, you don't fit in by asking the manager of the team to give up his number, that's not fitting in, that's asking someone else to adjust to your needs. That rubbed me the wrong way, and exposed to me just what kind of person he was.
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Post by Islandboagie on May 12, 2013 9:07:30 GMT -5
Rog -- You don't really know if Carlos is a prick or not. If he truly were, don't you think he would have blown off those kids, especially if he hadn't been feeling well? And if he were a prick, do you think he would have been respected in the Giants' clubhouse.
Boagie- Carlos himself said the Giants had no interest in resigning him, that might be a indication of how much he was respected. Divulging that information to the media also shows just how much he respected the Giants.
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Post by Islandboagie on May 12, 2013 9:13:03 GMT -5
A while back you talked about how Carlos wasn't a gamer, sitting when he shouldn't have. I posted about how he has fought injury, even going so far as to have a surgery that wasn't recommended by the Mets and which could have placed his contract in jeopardy had it failed.
Boagie- why can't he fight injuries when he's in a playoff series? We saw him run down the line right before he pulled himself out of the game, I noticed nothing of significance that would prevent him from playing.
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Post by Islandboagie on May 12, 2013 9:34:21 GMT -5
Maybe I'm being a little hard on Beltran, afterall I hate the guy. Him giving money to charity IS a good deed...but I'm afraid his attitude about it makes him fall short of being a saint in my eyes. He clearly states how it makes him feel like he's accomplished something by throwing his money around, and how the kids look up to him..ect ect. If it was truely a selfless act, he wouldn't be talking to Nightengale about just how much money he's given. Also, there is NO mention of how to donate to any of these charities in the article, which tells me Beltran isn't interested in raising money for these charities, he's interested promoting his own legacy.
I'm sorry, I just can't buy into it.
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Post by allenreed on May 12, 2013 9:40:11 GMT -5
Some guys just seem particularly biased against a player or players. For Don it has been Buster Posey and Tim Lincecum. For Allen it has been Barry Bonds, Jonathan Sanchez and Pablo Sandoval.
Allen- So much BS Rog. How am I biased? Are you saying Bonds wasn't a selfish, steroid using disgrace to the franchise, Sanchez isn't a lousy pitcher, and Pablo isn't overweight?
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donk
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Post by donk on May 12, 2013 12:12:23 GMT -5
Some guys just seem particularly biased against a player or players. For Don it has been Buster Posey and Tim Lincecum. For Allen it has been Barry Bonds, Jonathan Sanchez and Pablo Sandoval. Allen- So much BS Rog. How am I biased? Are you saying Bonds wasn't a selfish, steroid using disgrace to the franchise, Sanchez isn't a lousy pitcher, and Pablo isn't overweight? dk..I have no bias against anyone...I express my opinion on what I see as a problem....I think I hit the nail on Tim as I warned that his poor mechanics would catch up with him when his body loses its flexibility....he leaps, not strides...he starts his delivery in "mid-air", he became a junk ball pitcher. he should make his father a fan and let the pros teach him better mechanics...my main concern with Posey is that he wasn't the defensive catcher people painted him to be..his body does not take the strain of catching, he is slowing down much too fast..people around the Giants have been saying he will be moved ...I say move him now....he continues to hit much better as a first baseman than as a catcher... |
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Post by allenreed on May 13, 2013 10:42:25 GMT -5
During yesterday's game Krukow not once but twice remarked about how well Posey and Lincecum were working together, saying that he couldn't recall Timmy shaking him off even once. I wonder if you'll be harping on that for the next two years like you have about his less flattering remarks about Buster. When you do, then you can claim to be unbiased.
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donk
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Post by donk on May 13, 2013 12:00:56 GMT -5
see my remarks on other thread....which one has not followed the game plan prior??? Are you really too lacking in brains that when the reporter goes out of the way to note that Tim wasn't shaking off Posey, today, that he must have been doing a lot of shaking off in the past....and you will spend the next 2 years in denial....
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Post by Islandboagie on May 13, 2013 14:04:06 GMT -5
Dk- .my main concern with Posey is that he wasn't the defensive catcher people painted him to be..
Boagie- He's all that and more.
Dk- his body does not take the strain of catching, he is slowing down much too fast
Boagie- speed wise or production wise? The speed is due to his ankle injury, and the production won him an MVP award. I see no evidence that you comment here has any accuracy
Dk-..people around the Giants have been saying he will be moved ...
Boagie- Who around the Giants have said this recently? The only people I hear saying this are broadcasters of other teams. Bochy just recently said he'd like Posey catching even more games.
Dk- I say move him now....
Boagie- You also say Buster should bat 8th and Crawford should bat 4th. Kind of like last year when you said Burriss should lead off.
Dk- he continues to hit much better as a first baseman than as a catcher...
Boagie- Do you realize he faces a high percentage of lefties while he's playing first base?
Explain to me why you think his position matters more to his hitting than him facing lefties, which he has hit better against his entire career?
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donk
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Post by donk on May 13, 2013 20:41:22 GMT -5
my comment about Posey and Crawford was semi joke and semi reaction to his lack of any power at the start of the season....the idea was to take some of the pressure off until he regained his power.....as it is as of now...Posey is only hitting .261 in the 4 slot...he is also doing all his hitting in the Phone Booth... .357 home, .204 on the road...in case you haven't noticed, most catchers slow down more rapidly than other position players..Posey was slowing down before his injury....at one time, Posey was almost helpless with the bat in late innings...now, his trouble innings are the 6,7 and 8th ...he rebounds a little in the 9th...I think this related to him tiring....he also hits in a lot of double plays....
Maybe Rog should investigate the Phone Booth's effect on Posey instead of his comments of the effect of Dodger Stadium on Sandy Koufax.....
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Post by sharksrog on May 14, 2013 10:53:36 GMT -5
Boagie- Do you honestly believe that's smart to enter a hospital with sick kids while you have the flu? The flu could kill a child in that condition. I'd think someone who truely wanted to help would likely have put off his visit until they were sure they weren't contagious. Nightengale said Carlos was sitting in the lobby smothering his cough and wiping his nose, clearly Beltran was in no condition to be among sick children. I really don't know how else to explain logic to you. Rog -- Perhaps I didn't read the article close enough. But you are pointing out a mistake in judgment, within the context of a good act. You have attacked Beltran's character, and you don't really know much about him. Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=general&thread=1705&page=1#10710#ixzz2THb3ZmZW |
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Post by sharksrog on May 14, 2013 10:56:09 GMT -5
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Post by sharksrog on May 14, 2013 11:00:56 GMT -5
Rog -- Some guys just seem particularly biased against a player or players. For Don it has been Buster Posey and Tim Lincecum. For Allen it has been Barry Bonds, Jonathan Sanchez and Pablo Sandoval. Allen- So much BS Rog. How am I biased? Are you saying Bonds wasn't a selfish, steroid using disgrace to the franchise, Sanchez isn't a lousy pitcher, and Pablo isn't overweight? Rog -- Here is what I'm saying, Allen. Barry Bonds has put up better statistics in a Giants uniform than any player in history. Jonathan Sanchez's ERA from his no-hitter until the end of May, 2011 was among the top 20 or fewer starters in baseball. His hit rate and strikeout rate were among the VERY best of any starter during that period (just as his walk rate was probably THE worst). During his time with the Giants, Pablo Sandoval has been one of the best third basemen in the game. Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=general&thread=1705&page=1#ixzz2THcA7100 |
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Post by sharksrog on May 14, 2013 11:33:40 GMT -5
Dk- he continues to hit much better as a first baseman than as a catcher... Boagie- Do you realize he faces a high percentage of lefties while he's playing first base? Rog -- You make an outstanding point here, Boagie. It's not that stats lie, but rather that sometimes we don't fully understand them. Don says that Buster hits better as a first baseman, and you nicely point out it may because he faces more lefties that way. Don says that Buster hits worse in the last three innings of a game because he is tired. I point out that may because he KILLS finesse pitchers but isn't a great hitter against power pitchers. Which type of pitcher do you think he faces in the late innings? To add a little further, Bruce might catch his backup catchers a bit more against finesse pitchers, against whom he figures they have a better chance of hitting. And Buster faces more right-handers in the late innings. Sometimes what Don says is flat-out wrong. (Just, I might add, as he is right on the money at times.) A lot of the time what Don says is right, but he is far too narrow in his focus. The above are a couple of good examples, much as his relying too heavily on small samples is another. More and more I'm going to try to benefit from the good things Don says and just try to ignore the chaffe. Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=general&thread=1705&page=1#ixzz2THjeG7yO |
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Post by Islandboagie on May 14, 2013 12:09:24 GMT -5
Rog -- Here is what I'm saying, Allen.
Barry Bonds has put up better statistics in a Giants uniform than any player in history.
Boagie- He did. But I don't think that's Allen's issue with Barry. I think Allen just has a lack of respect for someone who took steriods and had the inflated ego like Barry did. I don't agree with Allen's disgust with Barry, but I totally understand it.
Rog- Jonathan Sanchez's ERA from his no-hitter until the end of May, 2011 was among the top 20 or fewer starters in baseball. His hit rate and strikeout rate were among the VERY best of any starter during that period (just as his walk rate was probably THE worst).
Boagie- I think we both know Jonathan was better than Allen gives him credit for. However, Allen's lack of patience for a pitcher like Sanchez is totally reasonable. I too found MANY of Sanchez's starts to be that of frusteration. Jonathan let his emotions get the best of him, whether it was with the umpire or an opposing player like Chase Utley. I liked Jonathan's passion, but his lack of focus often made games he started very nerve-racking. I think Allen needs to realize Jonathan was much better than he gives him credit for during the time frame that you mentioned, but at the same time, Allen is justified in being fed up with pitchers like Jonathan.
Rog- During his time with the Giants, Pablo Sandoval has been one of the best third basemen in the game.
Boagie- This is where I think Allen is 100% correct. I think he understands how good Pablo is, he just remembers how bad Pablo was in 2010 because of his weight issues. It seems like fans acknowledge Pablo has a weight problem, but few care about it when Pablo is hitting homeruns. When Pablo gets injured or isn't producing then those same fans will jump on him. At least Allen is consistent, he would prefer to not ignore the problem until it's too late. Allen's take on a professional athlete is they should be in prime physical condition to be able to perform at the highest level, I don't see how that is unreasonable to expect from someone making millions of dollars. I don't think Pablo will ever be skinny, but I don't think anyone can argue that he should be in better shape than he is now.
Overall I think Allen's concerns with these players were and are justified, however I think his dislike of Barry and Jonathan has clouded his vision on the good things they offered.
As for Sandoval, I think he gives Pablo credit, but at the same time thinks Pablo while good, would be even better if he was in good shape, I think this is the only logical way to look at it.
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donk
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Post by donk on May 14, 2013 12:26:00 GMT -5
you are making a lot of assumptions that I can't verify either way...Posey's worst inning is the 6th...is it because the starter is tired or a finesse pitcher is brought in relief or a hard thrower comes in to get the side out....Buster's hasn't played first base in the past because a lefthander was pitching...it was in order to catch certain pitchers...this year it is back to day games after night games, etc...I don't know how the opposing pitcher fits into the plan....and nothing is said about the great disparity between his home and away stats or his batting 4th versus other spots in the batting order.....I really don't know the actual difference between Posey's hitting against power or finesse pitchers...I know that such stats are available but I am not convinced...Buster is a very good mistake hitter ...he seems to be at his best in long counts in which he fouls off pitches and the pitcher finally gives him a mistake cup cake down the middle of the plate....he also gets hits on hard throwers where he is late and hits to right field....good hitting, but hard to hang your hat on his stats...and by the way, his catching has improved....he only makes occasional gaffes in his mechanics and maybe he is starting to get on the same page as the pitchers....I would think better about Posey if I saw visable signs that the other Giants really like him.....
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Post by allenreed on May 14, 2013 12:40:00 GMT -5
Rog -- Here is what I'm saying, Allen.
Barry Bonds has put up better statistics in a Giants uniform than any player in history.
Allen- And what you, in your bias, choose to ignore time and again, is that he cheated to do so, rendering the accomplishments meaningless. He also provided a path for many other Giant players to acquire and used steroids, and in reality commited a fraud. His attitude and demeanor, as well as his cheating, lying, and covering up, made him a disgrace to baseball and to the Giants franchise.
Jonathan Sanchez's ERA from his no-hitter until the end of May, 2011 was among the top 20 or fewer starters in baseball. His hit rate and strikeout rate were among the VERY best of any starter during that period (just as his walk rate was probably THE worst).
Allen- And yet, he experienced no sustained success at a pitcher, despite being very talented. He is now out of baseball, as far as I know. Relative to major league standards, and especially relative to his talent, he's a lousy pitcher.
During his time with the Giants, Pablo Sandoval has been one of the best third basemen in the game.
Allen- No doubt, but his weight has been and continues to be a problem, and as time goes on will only become more so, especially in regards to his overall health.
Pablo is indeed very talented, and seems to be getting even better. I don't know that I've ever said otherwise. But, there are close plays that he's involved in that could go the other way if he were in better shape. My argument is that with the resources available to him, there's just no excuse for him to weigh as much as he does.
We seem to be somewhat afraid of the truth here.
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Post by sharksrog on May 14, 2013 14:36:04 GMT -5
Rog -- Paying a teammate or manager to take over his number is fairly common. Bochy himself wore three different numbers as a player. How much attachment he had to #15 we don't know. But it wasn't enough not to give the number to Carlos. Boagie- I understand that, but when you want to fit in like Carlos said he wanted to, you don't fit in by asking the manager of the team to give up his number, that's not fitting in, that's asking someone else to adjust to your needs. Rog -- Virtually all new players want to fit in, but it's not at all uncommon for a player to take the number of a player or manager. Occasionally there isn't even any payment involved, although some type of payment is the norm. Boagie -- That rubbed me the wrong way, and exposed to me just what kind of person he was. Rog -- That one thing certainly doesn't "expose (one) to just what kind of person" someone is. What was important was how his teammates reacted, and I haven't read anything at all that suggested they were offended. Perhaps you could show us a reference. Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=general&thread=1705&page=1#ixzz2TIUDtp4O |
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Post by sharksrog on May 14, 2013 14:48:06 GMT -5
Rog -- Here is what I'm saying, Allen. Barry Bonds has put up better statistics in a Giants uniform than any player in history. Boagie- He did. But I don't think that's Allen's issue with Barry. I think Allen just has a lack of respect for someone who took steriods and had the inflated ego like Barry did. I don't agree with Allen's disgust with Barry, but I totally understand it. Rog -- I don't think the steroid issue is nearly as clear as Allen views it, but I don't think the use of steroids was right. Even though steroids weren't explicitly banned by baseball for a long time, players knew taking them was wrong. But Barry didn't single-handedly ruin the game, and while Allen says he is also against doctoring the ball, he mentions it about once for every 100 times he denigrates Bonds. And I don't remember his even mentioning that the only player I can remember who won his steroids appeal just happened to be a Milwaukee Brewer. IMO Allen's two problems are that he sees the issue in black and white (missing some shades of gray) and, even worse, that he continues to beat a dead horse as if the race is done and over with. Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=general&thread=1705&page=1#ixzz2TIVfDLd3 |
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Post by sharksrog on May 14, 2013 14:52:39 GMT -5
Boagie -- I think Allen needs to realize Jonathan was much better than he gives him credit for during the time frame that you mentioned, but at the same time, Allen is justified in being fed up with pitchers like Jonathan. Rog -- I am able to weed through the frustration when a pitcher pitches as well as Jonathan did between his no-hitter and the end of May, 2011. In fact, aside from his injury, I'll take a pitcher who equalled him through all of 2009 through 2011. My problem is the same as yours: Allen doesn't give Jonathan nearly enough credit for those periods. Over the rest of his career, Allen is much closer to the truth -- especially since May, 2011, where Jonathan was HORRIBLE. Allen seems unable to compartmentalize the different timeframes in Jonathan's career. Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=general&thread=1705&page=1#ixzz2TIYc0mHM |
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Post by sharksrog on May 14, 2013 15:00:17 GMT -5
Rog- During his time with the Giants, Pablo Sandoval has been one of the best third basemen in the game. Boagie- This is where I think Allen is 100% correct. I think he understands how good Pablo is, he just remembers how bad Pablo was in 2010 because of his weight issues. It seems like fans acknowledge Pablo has a weight problem, but few care about it when Pablo is hitting homeruns. Rog -- Only a blind man doesn't see that Pablo is overweight. Only one with little foresight doesn't see that that weight is probably hurting his performance right now and, worse, could severely limit his career's length. What Allen says is so obvious it isn't even worth discussing. What shouldn't be forgotten is that his performance, while limited by injury, has been quite good. His fielding has been adequate, and his hitting has been excellent. Maybe it is as obvious that Pablo's play has been quite good as it is that being overweight is taking a small toll and will eventually take a large one. But Allen keeps harping on the weight while saying comparatively little about the performance. IMO Allen either fails to see the whole picture, or ignores part of it. Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=general&thread=1705&page=1#ixzz2TIZhmSHO |
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Post by sharksrog on May 14, 2013 15:09:55 GMT -5
Don -- Maybe Rog should investigate the Phone Booth's effect on Posey instead of his comments of the effect of Dodger Stadium on Sandy Koufax..... Rog -- AT&T, which is a little larger than a phone boot, no doubt has a negative effect on Buster's performance -- especially since much of his power is to right-center. You are absolutely right that that effect deserves as much of a look at the positive effects of Dodger Stadium on Sandy Koufax. It is almost certain that Buster's hitting would be even better if he had another home park, just as it is almost certain that Sandy's pitching woudn't have been quite as good. Sandy performed -- and Buster is performing -- at a Hall of Fame level. It is particularly impressive that Buster has played as well as he has in what for most of his career has been strongly a pitchers' park. By the way, Buster is hitting FAR better at home this season than on the road (small sample, but huge difference which is unlikely to be overcome as the season closes in on being a full one), whereas Sandy NEVER had a season in which he pitched better on the road than in Dodger Stadium. And in his five seasons in Dodger Stadium, the difference was so large as to overcome all but the thinnest shadow of a doubt that it could have been coincidental. Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=general&thread=1705&page=1#ixzz2TIbjzBsS |
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Post by allenreed on May 14, 2013 16:19:47 GMT -5
Rog -- I don't think the steroid issue is nearly as clear as Allen views it, but I don't think the use of steroids was right. Even though steroids weren't explicitly banned by baseball for a long time, players knew taking them was wrong.
Allen- Steroids were illegal when Bonds used them. Shouldn't he go to jail? IMO anyone who is the least bit ambiguous about steroids has a severe lack of knowing right from wrong. If you cheated to accompliah something, you didn't really accomplish it. It's that simple.
But Barry didn't single-handedly ruin the game, and while Allen says he is also against doctoring the ball, he mentions it about once for every 100 times he denigrates Bonds.
Allen- As far as I know, the game isn't ruined, though I would say it's severely damaged.
And I don't remember his even mentioning that the only player I can remember who won his steroids appeal just happened to be a Milwaukee Brewer.
Allen- Is that even relevant?
IMO Allen's two problems are that he sees the issue in black and white (missing some shades of gray) and, even worse, that he continues to beat a dead horse as if the race is done and over with.
Allen- Wouldn't that be "even though the race is over and done with"? And if so isn't that like Jay Carney saying Benghazi was "a long time ago"?
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Post by allenreed on May 14, 2013 16:26:36 GMT -5
My problem is the same as yours: Allen doesn't give Jonathan nearly enough credit for those periods. Over the rest of his career, Allen is much closer to the truth -- especially since May, 2011, where Jonathan was HORRIBLE. Allen seems unable to compartmentalize the different timeframes in Jonathan's career. Allen- Didn't you get on me for doing just that? Sanchez had a good half season in 2010. He has superior ability. He did next to nothing with it. I have to admit that there is a certain satisfaction when you're proven right. I said a long time ago that Jonathan would never amount to anything, despite his exceptional tools, and that they should have traded him in about 2008. When that happened, I wasn't shy about pointing it out. Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=general&thread=1705&page=1#ixzz2TIYc0mHM[/quote] |
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