sfgdood
Long time member
stats geeks never played the game...that's why they don't get it and never will
Posts: 90
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Post by sfgdood on Sept 2, 2013 12:17:09 GMT -5
As much talk as there was about trading top prospects for Bud Norris on here, I have to say I'm a lot more impressed with what I have seen on this trip from Yusmero Petit than Bud Norris has ever shown me. He's been a journeyman most of his career but of course so was Vogey. And he's about the same age as Norris...best of all we don't have to trade anything for him. He's definitely more polished and Major League ready than anything we have in the minor leagues. I'd feel just fine about him taking Zito's spot in the rotation next season...in fact I hope Petit continues to get starts in Zito's spot after Cain comes off the DL, since it seems the Giants are intent on not shutting Matt down for some silly reason.
~Dood
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Post by rxmeister on Sept 2, 2013 13:52:20 GMT -5
I believe that's the plan. Today should be Zito's last night. Cain will start in his place this weekend. As for Petit, I wouldn't mind seeing him in the spot starter long relief Gaudin role next season, but I don't care how he pitches this September, they're crazy if they think he can be a rotation starter next year. Kuip pointed out the adjustments they made against him the third time around the order and they started to hit him hard. I can't see him in a rotation and making five starts a season against teams in the NL west. In fact the Giants DFA'd him earlier this season and nobody claimed him.
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sfgdood
Long time member
stats geeks never played the game...that's why they don't get it and never will
Posts: 90
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Post by sfgdood on Sept 2, 2013 14:10:44 GMT -5
I don't care about the DFA thing...anybody could have had Vogelsong a few years ago too, but nobody outside of Asia even called. More than half the major leagues gets DFAd in August and lots of good ones don't get claimed. You must not watch must baseball if you're criticizing based on adjustments being made the third time through the order...that happens to all pitchers. It's called the Big Leagues.
Yusmero's only 28, he has major league experience and he just went through two of the toughest ballparks on pitchers in the major leagues and came out with two sparkling victories. If you would trust Bud (4.36 Career ERA, and climbing) Norris to take a rotation spot, it makes little sense that you wouldn't trust Petit.
~Dood
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Post by allenreed on Sept 2, 2013 14:32:29 GMT -5
Sometimes guys just find it late. I'd definitely give Petit a long look next spring, and I'd definitely find someone other than Zito to run out there today. I'd get Surkamp or someone up here. What's the point of wasting innings on Zito?
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Post by rxmeister on Sept 2, 2013 15:38:39 GMT -5
I wouldn't call the Colorado start "sparkling," 6 hits and 3 walks in 6 innings, but I'll give you yesterday. And the adjustment comment is way off base because if a pitcher has great stuff it doesn't matter what adjustments you make, you're going to find him tough every at bat. But go right ahead, Dood, make him your starter for next year based on two starts.
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Post by allenreed on Sept 2, 2013 16:12:26 GMT -5
How many times have some here proclaimed Timmy as "back" after a good start or two, only to watch him go off the rails again? I'm not sure I'd proclaim Petit a starter for next year, but I'd sure give him every chance to prove he can do it.
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sfgdood
Long time member
stats geeks never played the game...that's why they don't get it and never will
Posts: 90
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Post by sfgdood on Sept 2, 2013 16:35:20 GMT -5
I wouldn't call the Colorado start "sparkling," 6 hits and 3 walks in 6 innings,
Dood - better than Clayton Kershaw's outing in Colorado today, 5 hits and 3 ER in less than 3 innings so far. It's a hard place to pitch, which is what makes Petit's outing there and also in AZ so impressive.
but I'll give you yesterday. And the adjustment comment is way off base because if a pitcher has great stuff it doesn't matter what adjustments you make, you're going to find him tough every at bat.
Dood - That depends on your definition of "great stuff." If by great you mean elite great, then yes you have a point. But you look at the stats of every pitcher in the big leagues and all but the very best will have a noticeable dropoff the third time through the order.
But go right ahead, Dood, make him your starter for next year based on two starts.
Dood - I didn't "make" him anything. I said I'd feel fine about him taking the spot if nothing better became available. My point was if you were fine with Bud Norris in the rotation, then it doesn't make sense to be against Yusmero in there, especially when it wont cost us any prospects.
~Dood
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Post by Islandboagie on Sept 2, 2013 17:38:33 GMT -5
Dood - better than Clayton Kershaw's outing in Colorado today, 5 hits and 3 ER in less than 3 innings so far.
Boagie- Are we really comparing Petit to Kershaw?
Randy, Petit is not going to be in our rotation next year. He's a AAAA pitcher, nothing more. If Petit IS in our rotation, something horrible happened.
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Post by allenreed on Sept 2, 2013 19:52:55 GMT -5
As opposed to Zito being in it? He was there and something horrible did happen. In 2010, did you think Vogey would be in the 2011 rotation?
On the other hand Bud Norris won his tenth today, going seven strong, one earnie, four hits, eight Ks and just one walk. 4-1, 4.27 as an Oriole. Baltimore is 6-1 in games Bud has started.
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sfgdood
Long time member
stats geeks never played the game...that's why they don't get it and never will
Posts: 90
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Post by sfgdood on Sept 2, 2013 22:42:04 GMT -5
Dood - better than Clayton Kershaw's outing in Colorado today, 5 hits and 3 ER in less than 3 innings so far.
Boagie- Are we really comparing Petit to Kershaw?
Dood - merely pointing out that Petit's outing in Colorado was very impressive, especially considering that Kershaw got rocked there.
Randy, Petit is not going to be in our rotation next year. He's a AAAA pitcher, nothing more. If Petit IS in our rotation, something horrible happened.
Dood - Merely pointing out that if Petit was to be in our rotation, it would be no worse than putting Bud Norris there.
~Dood
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sfgdood
Long time member
stats geeks never played the game...that's why they don't get it and never will
Posts: 90
|
Post by sfgdood on Sept 2, 2013 22:44:17 GMT -5
On the other hand Bud Norris won his tenth today, going seven strong, one earnie, four hits, eight Ks and just one walk. 4-1, 4.27 as an Oriole. Baltimore is 6-1 in games Bud has started.
Dood - just goes to prove that bad pitching can still win with a potent offense. Too bad our offense isnt that potent.
~Dood
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sfgdood
Long time member
stats geeks never played the game...that's why they don't get it and never will
Posts: 90
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Post by sfgdood on Sept 2, 2013 23:00:34 GMT -5
Petit is not going to be in our rotation next year. He's a AAAA pitcher, nothing more
Dood - I recall reading similar stuff about Vogelsong a few years back.
~Dood
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Post by rxmeister on Sept 3, 2013 7:14:09 GMT -5
Dood, you really think Yusmeiro Petit is as good as Bud Norris? A career minor leaguer with a 5.37 ERA in his limited time in the majors, is as good as a pitcher who has been in a major league rotation for five years, has an ERA a full run lower over his career, and who has struck out 686 hitters in 729 innings, which is almost a batter an inning? Petit's last year when he was part of a rotation was 3-10 with an ERA of 5.92!
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Post by allenreed on Sept 3, 2013 9:50:37 GMT -5
Dood - better than Clayton Kershaw's outing in Colorado today, 5 hits and 3 ER in less than 3 innings so far. Boagie- Are we really comparing Petit to Kershaw? Dood - merely pointing out that Petit's outing in Colorado was very impressive, especially considering that Kershaw got rocked there. Allen- Kershaw may have got rocked (by his standards) but he still got the win. Dood - Merely pointing out that if Petit was to be in our rotation, it would be no worse than putting Bud Norris there. Allen- While I'm all for giving Petit a shot, he won't be as good as Norris.
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Post by Islandboagie on Sept 3, 2013 10:32:07 GMT -5
If that's your opinion Allen, why would you want to give him a shot?
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Post by Islandboagie on Sept 3, 2013 10:57:37 GMT -5
Petit is not going to be in our rotation next year. He's a AAAA pitcher, nothing more
Dood - I recall reading similar stuff about Vogelsong a few years back.
~Dood
Boagie- Vogelsong wasn't slated as a starting pitcher, he was brought in after the "injury" to Zito. I have no problem keeping Petit in the system for depth. If he has a solid spring training and proves he should be the #6 starter (like Vogelsong did) gets his shot and puts up similar numbers like Vogey put up in 2011 then I would consider him a viable starting pitcher for the next season. I don't think we can base our whole season on two sub par career pitchers (Petit and Goudin) beating the odds and becoming quality starting pitchers. What Vogelsong did was very rare, while I think its a great story, let's not make it the status quo.
If the Giants want to compete they need to revamp their rotation with a front line starter, not Petit and Goudin.
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Post by Islandboagie on Sept 3, 2013 11:00:44 GMT -5
I said it was the injury to Zito that allowed Vogelsong his chance, but it may have been Sanchez's injury.
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Post by allenreed on Sept 3, 2013 13:12:09 GMT -5
When you give someone a chance, and their performance far exceeds expectations, how can you not give them the job. We're talking fourth and fifth starters here. Heck, we once thought Jonathan Sanchez was good enough. Gaudin went 5-1 as a starter. He started 12 games. In nine of those he gave up two earned runs or less. In seven of them he gave up one earned run or less. I don't think any of our other starters performed that well, Timmy certainly didn't. I would say Chad far and away exceeded expectations. He certainly deserves a spot.
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sfgdood
Long time member
stats geeks never played the game...that's why they don't get it and never will
Posts: 90
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Post by sfgdood on Sept 7, 2013 9:19:48 GMT -5
Anyone rethinking their opinion of Petit now? Just wondering.
~Dood
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Post by Islandboagie on Sept 7, 2013 11:12:27 GMT -5
Not really. Like I said I wouldn't have both Goudin AND Petit in the rotation, but we could see one as the #5 and the other in long relief.
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sfgdood
Long time member
stats geeks never played the game...that's why they don't get it and never will
Posts: 90
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Post by sfgdood on Sept 7, 2013 16:55:09 GMT -5
Stubbornness is an amazing thing. I'm not expecting Petit will be dominant the rest of his career but how could you not be highly impressed? Sheesh!
~Dood
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Post by allenreed on Sept 7, 2013 18:10:25 GMT -5
Thing is, it's not just last night. Petit has made four appearances since being recalled, and has pitched well in every one. When Timmy threw his no-no there were people here who were willing to hand him a 5yr/$100 million contract on the spot. I might point out though, that you have exhibited the same stubborness regarding Gaudin.
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Post by Islandboagie on Sept 7, 2013 23:24:54 GMT -5
I would hand Timmy a nice contract regardless of his no-hitter. Tim Lincecum is the greatest player to ever play in San Francisco. Based on what he's already done he deserves it. They should erect a Lincecum statue next to Mays' statue and make it a foot taller.
As for Petit...he's pitched very nicely, and the almost perfect game was fun to watch. He could turn into another good story like Vogelsong and Torres. But he is not Tim Lincecum, and he will never be Tim Lincecum.
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Post by allenreed on Sept 8, 2013 0:11:30 GMT -5
I would hand Timmy a nice contract regardless of his no-hitter. Tim Lincecum is the greatest player to ever play in San Francisco. Allen- You were the guy who never saw Mays, right? Based on what he's already done he deserves it. They should erect a Lincecum statue next to Mays' statue and make it a foot taller. Allen- Lincecum had three good years, then descended into mediocrity. His career ERA is four points better than Atlee Hammaker's, and below such Giant legends as Jim Barr,Scott Garrelts, Jeff Brantley, Bobby Bolin, and Frank Linzy. Not to mention Matt Cain and Madison Bumgarner. Win percentage? Despite playing on two World Series winners, he's right there with Shawn Estes, and below Noah Lowry, Mark Gardner, and Russ Ortiz.
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Post by Islandboagie on Sept 8, 2013 3:24:07 GMT -5
Yeah, I'm the guy who never saw Mays. And you're the guy who never saw Mays lead San Francisco to a World Series Championship, let alone 2 of them, because it never happened. Mays was a great player, but he never achieved the main goal, as far as I'm concerned that prevents Mays being in the discussion of the greatest Giants player. We now have a handful of players who have achieved that goal two times.
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Post by rxmeister on Sept 8, 2013 7:49:20 GMT -5
Giants didn't start in San Francisco, Boagie, They started in NYC, and Willie Mays was the NL MVP in 1954 the year they won the World Series. Look at these numbers. He hit .345 with 33 doubles, 13 triples and 41 homeruns and 110 RBI's for you guys who still like that number. His OPS was 1.078. His WAR was 10.1, which in case some don't know is wins above replacement, which means the Giants won TEN more games because they had him in centerfield over an average player. Can you imagine if they had a BAD center fielder how many less games they would have won? By the way he did this six different years with two of them even over eleven. Also, comparing championships as a way of comparing players? You're better than that, Boagie. By that logic Guillermo Mota was a better player than Willie Mays and Barry Bonds put together! As for re-signing Timmy, I want him back, but any team that takes past accomplishments rendered into future contract considerations is going to fail. Thanks for the Cy Young's and championships, Timmy, but your next contract is going to be strictly based on what we think you'll do going forward. Timmy turned down a big contract extension because he wasn't sentimental, and the Giants cannot afford to be either. He's been well below average these last two seasons while being paid like an elite number one. The Giants would be crazy to overpay for him.
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sfgdood
Long time member
stats geeks never played the game...that's why they don't get it and never will
Posts: 90
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Post by sfgdood on Sept 8, 2013 9:41:11 GMT -5
Allen- Lincecum had three good years, then descended into mediocrity.
Dood - to call Lincecum's best years merely "good" would be like saying Mays had a "good" career. And while his recent years have indeed dipped in quality, the story of Tim's career is far from done. We shall see how it finishes up.
His career ERA is four points better than Atlee Hammaker's,
Dood - which tells us that Hammaker wasnt as bad as lots of people made him out to be.
Win percentage? Despite playing on two World Series winners, he's right there with Shawn Estes, and below Noah Lowry, Mark Gardner, and Russ Ortiz.
Dood - want to compare postseason stats among those players with Timmy's postseason stats? I'll even let you lead with your favorite meaningless pitching stat...wins.
~Dood
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Post by Islandboagie on Sept 8, 2013 10:48:01 GMT -5
Also, comparing championships as a way of comparing players? You're better than that, Boagie. By that logic Guillermo Mota was a better player than Willie Mays and Barry Bonds put together!
Boagie- If Mota was a main cog for those Championships and out pitched the best pitchers in the game on the big stage then I would probably agree with that statement.
I understand that my statement was controversial, and that many people would disagree. But I like to look at the big picture. Step back and realize what were talking about here...baseball is a game its not the Miss America pageant. We don't need to judge the players on all aspects of their game to decide who the best is. If you want to sit in your livingroom and listen to the analysts on the MLB network flap their lips for hours bringing up every stat ever created to prove who the best player is, by all means, that's entertaining. But the fact is, baseball makes it easy for us, they don't need judges. The players and teams prove who the best is in October and November. Timmy and the Giants proved that twice. Mays, McCovey, Bonds and all the other ex S.F. Giants you guys drool over were the guys who got sent home early.
Tim Lincecum and the 2010 team finally showed the city of San Francisco what its like to be the best. In 2012 they did it again just to prove they weren't a fluke. In my opinion if we keep this core of players together we'll win again.
Everywhere I go, do you know what I see? Giants hats, sweatshirts, jerseys, and I don't live in the bay area. I was in the bay area a few months back and you cannot go anywhere without seeing multiple people with some Giants garb on. That's what winning does, and that's what Tim Lincecum gave us. He finally gave us bragging rights over the Dodgers and A's. Mays didn't do that, nobody did that for San Francisco prior to 2010.
So yeah, Mark, Allen and whoever else, when Tim Lincecum is being shit on, I'm going to speak up.
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Post by allenreed on Sept 8, 2013 11:06:15 GMT -5
Yeah, I'm the guy who never saw Mays. And you're the guy who never saw Mays lead San Francisco to a World Series Championship, let alone 2 of them, because it never happened. Mays was a great player, but he never achieved the main goal, as far as I'm concerned that prevents Mays being in the discussion of the greatest Giants player. We now have a handful of players who have achieved that goal two times Allen- Absolutely. Guillermo Mota, better than Willie Mays. I can see that. Put up a statue for him. Just because someone happened to be along for the ride a couple of times doesn't make them a great player.
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Post by allenreed on Sept 8, 2013 11:10:28 GMT -5
Allen- Lincecum had three good years, then descended into mediocrity. Dood - to call Lincecum's best years merely "good" would be like saying Mays had a "good" career. And while his recent years have indeed dipped in quality, the story of Tim's career is far from done. We shall see how it finishes up. Allen- Ok. I'll change "good" to "great" if you change "dipped" to "plummeted". His career ERA is four points better than Atlee Hammaker's, Dood - which tells us that Hammaker wasnt as bad as lots of people made him out to be. Win percentage? Despite playing on two World Series winners, he's right there with Shawn Estes, and below Noah Lowry, Mark Gardner, and Russ Ortiz. Dood - want to compare postseason stats among those players with Timmy's postseason stats? I'll even let you lead with your favorite meaningless pitching stat...wins. ~Dood
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