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Post by rxmeister on Aug 29, 2013 10:11:04 GMT -5
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sfgdood
Long time member
stats geeks never played the game...that's why they don't get it and never will
Posts: 90
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Post by sfgdood on Aug 29, 2013 14:57:16 GMT -5
I'm still sick of his laziness...that ole job last night was little league crap.
~Dood
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Post by rxmeister on Aug 29, 2013 15:59:24 GMT -5
LOL. Show someone a bunch of stats showing the guy's a rising star, and the best defensive first baseman in the league, and they're going to talk about one play that cost them nothing, ignoring the clutch double and two walks.
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sfgdood
Long time member
stats geeks never played the game...that's why they don't get it and never will
Posts: 90
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Post by sfgdood on Aug 29, 2013 17:45:24 GMT -5
I would say he had an ok series in Denver. 5 singles, a double and just one measly RBI. If he was a singles hitter like Ellsbury I'd say it was a GREAT series. But for a first baseman expected to produce runs, it was merely a pedestrian showing in a home run hitter's paradise. Then we have that lazy error that did cost Bumgarner more than a few extra pitches that inning. It could have made the difference in that game ultimately.
~Dood
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Post by allenreed on Aug 29, 2013 20:05:18 GMT -5
Why is it a lazy error? Nobody looks good making an error. Lazy? How about a guy who won't get in shape? How about a guy who won't back up bases, or learn to hold runners on? Belt's only in his second full season, yet you're expecting a combination of Lou Gehrig/Keith Hernandez.
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sfgdood
Long time member
stats geeks never played the game...that's why they don't get it and never will
Posts: 90
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Post by sfgdood on Aug 29, 2013 22:33:50 GMT -5
all Im expecting is keeping his head in the game and giving honest effort. When you ole a grounder that you had plenty of time to get in front of, that's plain lazy. If Belt played SS or 3rd base I can see why he'd try to backhand a play like that because he has a long throw to make...but at first base just knock it down and beat the guy to the base.
~Dood
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Post by rxmeister on Aug 30, 2013 9:40:31 GMT -5
"One lousy RBI?" Read the article again, as it explains for the millionth time the unimportance of the individual's RBI total, and why Belt's total is lower than his peers. Hunter Pence and Buster Posey both had over 100 RBI's last year and are in the sixties this year and Pence is even having a better year than he did last year! Henry Schulman, in fact, in a critique of the article, said that everyone knows the unimportance of RBI's by now, and it was "idiotic" for the writer to bring it up, as a reason Belt gets no respect. I guess Schulman is wrong because some here are still using it. By the way, if Belt's double doesn't bounce over the wall, he gets two RBI's, and two RBI in three games, projects to 108 over a full season, further exposing the silliness of your RBI comment.
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sfgdood
Long time member
stats geeks never played the game...that's why they don't get it and never will
Posts: 90
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Post by sfgdood on Aug 30, 2013 16:16:09 GMT -5
Schulman is a stats geek. I like Hank but he can get too cought up in all the designer stats of today for my liking. I'm more concerned with all the hittable ptches that Belt didn't hit over the fence with NO bounce in the thin air. I can understand him not hitting some in SF, but up in that place? Not even one? Maybe Schulman and the author like singles hitters at first base...I don't.
~Dood
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Post by Islandboagie on Aug 30, 2013 18:06:11 GMT -5
I was with you for most of this conversation, Randy, but I think you're being a little picky now.
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Post by dk on Aug 30, 2013 19:02:32 GMT -5
I was with you for most of this conversation, Randy, but I think you're being a little picky now. dk..why pick on Belt, our clean up hitter has gone 33 games, 121 PA and 106 AB's with 26 hits for 29 total bases...and in Rog's favorite stat for dissing Burriss, a bottom of the order hitter.,1.12 bases per hit on the road to the HOF.....
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Post by allenreed on Aug 30, 2013 21:11:14 GMT -5
I believe Randy's messing with us here. He cannot be serious.
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Post by rxmeister on Aug 31, 2013 10:25:58 GMT -5
Dood, you're really off base here. Schulman is one of the least stats oriented writer covering the Giants, and he takes a lot of crap from Giants fans because of it. As for Belt, I think you can see everyone disagreeing with you here. Giants won 1-0 last night. Guess who drove in the only run of the game?
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sfgdood
Long time member
stats geeks never played the game...that's why they don't get it and never will
Posts: 90
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Post by sfgdood on Sept 1, 2013 19:43:49 GMT -5
hey if you all are happy with a 280-ish singles hitter who has frequent brain cramps in the field as your first baseman, that's fine. Me, I had set my sights a little higher for the kid. I'm highly disappointed that he's still making ridiculous plays in the field like cutting off that throw last night that might have cost us the game. And I noticed Bochy has gone back to giving Hector some of his starts against lefties because the lack of pop is now disturbing him too. It worked today.
~Dood
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Post by allenreed on Sept 1, 2013 23:16:49 GMT -5
What about a fat .270ish hitter at third with just 10 homers? Should we set our sights a bit higher there, too.
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sfgdood
Long time member
stats geeks never played the game...that's why they don't get it and never will
Posts: 90
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Post by sfgdood on Sept 1, 2013 23:31:23 GMT -5
our sights should be high for both players. I never said Pablo's numbers this year were good or acceptable in any way. But given what's out there on the market, the best course of action is to let him play out the last year on his deal and then decide whether he deserves another. As for Belt, it's good that he's hitting better, but I was sort of hoping that 1000 ABs into his career, he'd be further along than he is...and the mental focus on the field definitely needs to improve.
~Dood
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Post by rxmeister on Sept 2, 2013 8:55:46 GMT -5
Brandon Belt has 29 doubles, 4 triples and 15 homeruns, playing in a park that's unforgiving to left handed hitters. That's a singles hitter?
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Post by sharksrog on Sept 4, 2013 1:09:22 GMT -5
Randy -- I would say he had an ok series in Denver. 5 singles, a double and just one measly RBI. Rog -- It seems to me that if Gary Brown had such a series, you would praise him for it. Yes, Brown is more of a singles hitter, but how is it that Belt goes 6 for 10 with a double, two walks, four runs scored and an RBI, and it wasn't even an OK series for him? Ever since you gave up on Brandon, Randy, you seem to have set a much different standard for him. He got on base 8 out of 12 times, and he didn't even play OK? Lord have mercy! Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=general&action=display&thread=1985#ixzz2dtwNxwgh
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Post by sharksrog on Sept 4, 2013 1:37:48 GMT -5
Randy -- Schulman is a stats geek. Rog -- I've never thought of Henry in that way, and I haven't heard anyone else say it either. Randy -- I like Hank but he can get too cought up in all the designer stats of today for my liking. Rog -- I'm not surprised. But if I had to go with whether he or you knew more about baseball and the Giants, I would have little choice but to declare Henry a winner by a large margin. Randy -- I'm more concerned with all the hittable ptches that Belt didn't hit over the fence with NO bounce in the thin air. Rog -- Which makes you a fool IMO. Brandon has been hitting with a lot more power than Buster Posey, who has done a lot more cleanup hitting than Brandon. A year or so ago you said I gave up on Brandon, Randy. I never did. But YOU did -- right before he began playing what is probably the best baseball of his career. Randy -- I can understand him not hitting some in SF, but up in that place? Not even one? Rog -- I suspect Barry Bonds is the greatest home run hitter in Coors Field history -- yet even HE didn't hit a homer per three games, as you seem to have expected Brandon to do. Randy -- Maybe Schulman and the author like singles hitters at first base...I don't. Rog -- And once again you are showing either bias or ignorance (or possibly even both). Yes, I'd LOVE to have my first baseman be a home run hitter. But I'll take a guy who gets 6 hits and 7 total bases in 10 at bats and who reaches base 8 times in 12 trips to the plate without a qualm. Give me BALLPLAYERS, and I'll win. Sure, I'd like guys to fit particular roles. But give me guys who don't make outs and have a modicum of power, and my team will score PLENTY of runs. This season Brandon has created 6.6 runs per 27 outs, which is easily 2nd on the Giants behind only Buster Posey's 7.1. Brandon's 5.9 runs created over his career is very good -- and in fact is tied with Hunter Pence for career and well AHEAD of Hunter as a Giant. This season Brandon ranks #10 in batting average, #8 in OBP, #7 in SLG and #6 in OPS among ALL first basemen. If you're not satisfied, you're way off base. I'm not saying Brandon couldn't do better. I'm not saying he makes mental errors. What I'm saying is that he ranks in or near the top quartile of first baseman both at bat and in the field. The only other Giant who can make that claim is Posey. Since the All-Star game, Brandon has ranked #3 in average, #5 in OBP, #3 in SLG and #3 in OPS among all first baseman. After five weeks of the season, Belt's OPS was just .619. 17 weeks later, it was .833 going into tonight's game. In other words, since May 8th, Brandon has been a very good to excellent hitter. Am I completely satisified with Brandon as a player? Certainly not. Am I happy that he's showing more of his potential than ever before? You bet I am. Among ALL Giants this season, one could argue that Brandon has been the 3rd best. In Wins Above Replacement, he ranks 2nd only to Buster Posey. If you truly don't think Brandon has been OK, I think you're missing a good game. Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=general&thread=1985&page=1#ixzz2dtyAhpHP
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Post by rxmeister on Sept 4, 2013 7:17:44 GMT -5
I saw a comment on Alex Pavlovic's column, that Belt has just one extra base hit less than the vaunted Joey Votto, and he's had 78 less plate appearances. Let me add the difference in home ball parks, and that Belt makes 513K and Joey Votto 19 million.
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Post by sharksrog on Sept 4, 2013 10:58:55 GMT -5
Mark -- I saw a comment on Alex Pavlovic's column, that Belt has just one extra base hit less than the vaunted Joey Votto, and he's had 78 less plate appearances. Let me add the difference in home ball parks, and that Belt makes 513K and Joey Votto 19 million. Rog -- Joey just hasn't been quite the same hitter after his injury last season, has he. He's still excellent, of course, but not outstanding as he had been previously. After I got off-line last night, the point you made here dawned on me. Brandon provides the best return on a dollar-for-dollar basis of any Giants player. The key to most teams are their pre-free agency players -- especially pre-arbitration players. Even as we are criticizing him here -- with at least part of the criticism being valid -- Brandon almost certainly provides the Giants' best value and thus could be considered to be making one of the most important contributions to the team. One thing I feel bad about, and I dont' mean this in a negative way, is that just after Randy gave up on Brandon, he suddenly became the NL Player of the Month. Randy truly had been Brandon's best supporter, and we're now seeing more than ever why that was the case. I don't mean this in a mean manner either, but Randy, PLEASE give up on Gary Brown! Or we could simply have Boly tell us how Gary isn't any good. I was talking with my son yesterday, and a couple of things came up: First, Mariano Rivera may reside with Babe Ruth as the game's greatest outliers. Second, as relates to this converstation, Pedro Martinez might be the most underrated retired player. As mentioned here earlier, Tim Raines is another candidate. I've got to think Belt is the Giants' most underrated player and has been since a year ago. A third topic came up: Should Pete Rose and Shoeless Jackson be in the Hall? I think that one depends on which side of the cue ball one sees. Same thing with the steroid boys. My son and I discussed whether today's players or the players of my youth were better, which led me to say that with few exceptions, we don't know which players were/are on steroids. He talked about the admitted use of amphetimines by the players I knew growing up. You know, the more we talk, the more we see that the world is gray rather than black or white. And that how we navigate our way through the gray area that may define the richness of our lives. Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=general&thread=1985&page=1#14643#ixzz2dwGlBd8x
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sfgdood
Long time member
stats geeks never played the game...that's why they don't get it and never will
Posts: 90
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Post by sfgdood on Sept 4, 2013 20:07:21 GMT -5
Randy -- I would say he had an ok series in Denver. 5 singles, a double and just one measly RBI.
Rog -- It seems to me that if Gary Brown had such a series, you would praise him for it.
Dood - Of course I would because for Brown it WOULD be a great series just to get any kind of hits. I said as much in my post but you ignored it.
Yes, Brown is more of a singles hitter, but how is it that Belt goes 6 for 10 with a double, two walks, four runs scored and an RBI, and it wasn't even an OK series for him?
Dood - I said it WAS ok...but merely ok. If he is seeing the ball well enough to get 6 hits in that HR haven, to not get more extra base hits and not one HR is not a great series, IMO.
Ever since you gave up on Brandon, Randy, you seem to have set a much different standard for him. He got on base 8 out of 12 times, and he didn't even play OK? Lord have mercy!
Dood - A) I never gave up on Belt...I merely got tired of seeing him underachieve AND commit egredious mental errors. The mental errors are still happening but at least he's hitting better. Still underachieving but better. B) The fact is my criticism shows my standards for Belt haven't changed. I always expected a lot from him...but he's no rookie anymore and it's time for him to start coming close to all that potential.
~Dood
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sfgdood
Long time member
stats geeks never played the game...that's why they don't get it and never will
Posts: 90
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Post by sfgdood on Sept 4, 2013 20:18:54 GMT -5
8 HRs in the game today. 5 by the Giants. 2 by Pablo. 0 by Belt.
Brandon is 2 for 4 with 2 singles. Nice...nothing special, but nice.
~Dood
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Post by allenreed on Sept 4, 2013 21:30:46 GMT -5
Good grief! Since the AS break Brandon's hitting .326 with an OBP of .397. He's slugging .543 with an OPS of .940. Just what do you see as his potential? By contrast, Pablo is .281/.349/.379/.728 over the same period. yet in your mind Pablo's great and Belt's not living up to his potential. Wow. Again, you have to be trying to mess with us. You simply cannot be serious.
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sfgdood
Long time member
stats geeks never played the game...that's why they don't get it and never will
Posts: 90
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Post by sfgdood on Sept 4, 2013 21:52:36 GMT -5
I expect Belt to hit over 300, with an OPS over or close to 900, 25+ HRs, 90+ RBI. I always expected this and until he puts together a season like this, I will say he is underachieving.
~Dood
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sfgdood
Long time member
stats geeks never played the game...that's why they don't get it and never will
Posts: 90
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Post by sfgdood on Sept 4, 2013 22:44:33 GMT -5
Since the AS break Brandon's hitting .326 with an OBP of .397. He's slugging .543 with an OPS of .940. Just what do you see as his potential? By contrast, Pablo is .281/.349/.379/.728 over the same period. yet in your mind Pablo's great and Belt's not living up to his potential. Wow.
Dood - In that same time period, Brandon has 5 HRs and 14 RBI...Pablo has 4 HRs and 29 RBI. The "chronically injured" and obese Pablo has 18 more RBI than Belt this year in what even he would describe as an awful season. That tells a lot. Fact is, Pablo has been there and done that already while Belt hasn't yet.
~Dood
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Post by sharksrog on Sept 4, 2013 23:42:29 GMT -5
Dood - I said it WAS ok...but merely ok. Rog -- Actually, you did. I misinterpreted. Sorry. On the other hand, you're saying the guy who just won the NL Player of the Month is just OK, I've got to question that. And, yes, I realize you were talking about only three games. But when a guy has a .600 batting average, a .700 SLG, a .667 OBP and a 1.367 OPS, what is there to complain about? I'd say that is MUCH more than OK. Give me nine guys who have those figures like that, and I'll turn it into a BUNCH of runs per game. Those nine guys would outscore even nine Babe Ruth's. In 2004, Barry Bonds hit .362/.609/.822/1.441, which are somewhat similar numbers to those Belt posted in the Colorado series (although the two clearly did so in different manners). Barry created 21 runs per 27 outs. That should give you a rough idea of how well Belt hit in that series. Randy, back before you gave up on Brandon, you said everyone else had given up on him -- which not everyone had. Now you don't seem to want to give him credit for his accomplishments since you gave up. Since then, Brandon has arguably been the best player in the National League. Now you seem to be the one not giving him ample credit. Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=general&thread=1985&page=1#14666#ixzz2dzLraJzp
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Post by sharksrog on Sept 4, 2013 23:44:38 GMT -5
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Post by sharksrog on Sept 4, 2013 23:46:27 GMT -5
Ever since you gave up on Brandon, Randy, you seem to have set a much different standard for him. He got on base 8 out of 12 times, and he didn't even play OK? Lord have mercy! Dood - A) I never gave up on Belt...I merely got tired of seeing him underachieve AND commit egredious mental errors. Rog -- I'll take your word for it. I'm unlikely to go back and check. But if you didn't give up on Brandon, you came pretty darn close. Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=general&thread=1985&page=1#ixzz2dzT5mjbT
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Post by sharksrog on Sept 4, 2013 23:49:36 GMT -5
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Post by allenreed on Sept 5, 2013 0:12:58 GMT -5
I expect Belt to hit over 300, with an OPS over or close to 900, 25+ HRs, 90+ RBI. I always expected this and until he puts together a season like this, I will say he is underachieving. Allen- How many hitters are doing that? You think Brandon (in his second full season) should be on a par with the best hitters in the game?
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