Has anyne noticed....

[allenreed]

that Pablo is 3 for 34 (all singles) in August?

[rxmeister]

He should gain the weight back!

[Islandboagie]

I've often been called sentimental by Allen when talking about Giants from the 2010 and 2012 teams but I think its come to the point where I'd be up for trading Pablo if we can get something decent in return. I think our infield defense would be a lot better if we had someone with range at 3rd base. Crawford could shift over a bit and get to more balls up the middle.

The question is who could we get for him? Are there's any good free agent 3rd baseman out there this off season? I think we could easily pull in a good outfielder for Pablo..trading him for another 3rd baseman might be more difficult.

[allenreed]

I'm sure you could get ARod for him. (Kidding of course). Other than maybe Michael Young, I don't see anything very exciting there. And Young is overpriced.

[Islandboagie]

Isn't Ian Kinsler a FA? We could sign him, get Scutaro to play 3rd and package Pablo with some young "talent" for a top notch outfielder. There, now I just need Sabean's cell phone number.

[dk]

Aug 11, 2013 13:40:50 GMT -5 allenreed said:

that Pablo is 3 for 34 (all singles) in August?

dk..or that Posey 7 for 34, all singles, 0HR's , and 2 RB's...Since Posey's last homer on 7/20, Posey 10 for 66 with one double.
That is a BA of .152, and slg at .167...where is Burriss when we need him?

[sharksrog]

Boagie -- I think we could easily pull in a good outfielder for Pablo

Rog -- Possibly, if the Giants took a player with one more year of team control a la Pablo himself. They acquired both Melky and Angel with that contract status. Getting a third baseman could be tricky, and the Giants would be trading Pablo when his value is down.

Perhaps if he hits like heck the rest of the way -- but then we'd probably want to keep him, wouldn't we?

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[sharksrog]

Boagie -- Isn't Ian Kinsler a FA? We could sign him, get Scutaro to play 3rd and package Pablo with some young "talent" for a top notch outfielder. There, now I just need Sabean's cell phone number.

Rog -- The devil might be in the details (probably including salary), but I like the concept and the creativity of your thinking.

Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=general&thread=1955&page=1#ixzz2bikMpNaf

[sharksrog]

dk..or that Posey 7 for 34, all singles, 0HR's , and 2 RB's...Since Posey's last homer on 7/20, Posey 10 for 66 with one double.
That is a BA of .152, and slg at .167...where is Burriss when we need him?

Rog -- It's hard to get much worse than that, although to be honest I thought it might be. This has got to be the biggest slump of Buster's career to date, doesn't it?


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[sfgdood]

It amazes me how much Pablo just can't win on here. Even when he was hitting, people wanted him gone because he's too fat. Now he's not hitting and he's slimmed down and people still want him gone. He's hitting better this year than Pence did for us the last 2 months of last season but people still wanted Hunter back.

Pablo just can't catch a break here.

~Dood

[allenreed]

Yes, maybe he should be in shape (as nearly every player is) and perform decently. For a player with his talent to be hitting as he is is just a disgrace.

[sfgdood]

The problem is, you were calling him disgraceful to be a professional athlete who is overweight...even though he was performing well, that wasnt enough for you. Now he has taken off some weight and because he isn't performing at this moment, you call him disgraceful still. He'll never be able to win until he looks like an adonis AND hits like the two time All Star he is.

Personally I only care about the performance. But given his career average is around 300, I have full faith he can bounce back. He's still pretty young.

~Dood

[allenreed]

Hence the word "and" in the initial sentence. Is it unreasonable to expect a player of Pablo's talent to be in shape and perform in a manner in line with said talent?
Adonis, no. I just rather he didn't look like John Goodman.

[sfgdood]

Pablo's shape is pretty similar to a guy who is considered by many to be the best baseball player ever...some called him the Bambino.

~Dood

[Islandboagie]

If Pablo hits 714 home runs I'll buy him a Taco Bell gift card. Unfortunately he'll never come remotely close to that number because he continues to have extended trips to the DL.

[sfgdood]

The point wasnt that Pablo is as good as Ruth. The point was that one doesn't need to look like a freakin Greek God to be great at this game. And i defy you to connect any one of his injuries to his weight.

~Dood

[allenreed]

You could easily connect both his foot injury this season, and the muscle pull he incurred while playing first to his weight. And again, every ball he just misses getting to, every time he's nipped at first, every time he has to be held on a ball where most players could have scored, it's because of his weight.

[sfgdood]

You could easily connect both his foot injury this season,

Dood - if you can, I'd like to know how. I don't think it was ever reported exactly how the injury occurred. At least I never heard it.




and the muscle pull he incurred while playing first to his weight.

Dood - no sale. He was doing a complete split when that happened, playing a position he had little to no familiarity with. It could have happened to anyone, even if they werent overweight. When I was about his age, I would sometimes play first base on my rec league softball team and I can tell you when i did a particularly long stretch--not necessarily a full split--I felt it the next day. I wasn't in my best shape but I was hardly overweight.

And again, every ball he just misses getting to, every time he's nipped at first, every time he has to be held on a ball where most players could have scored, it's because of his weight.

Dood - maybe, maybe not...but if you are looking to run a guy down, this gives you some convenient excuses. Pablo is not a speed burner but he is not slow. In fact, he's a LOT faster than Buster Posey and nobody has ever called Buster overweight or complains when he gets beat by a little bit on a slow grounder (and that happens a LOT). Heck, Posey has failed to score from second on a double this year. I can't remember that happening to Panda even once his whole career.

I will grant that Pablo is quicker around the bag at 3rd when he is lighter. But that is a relative measure. Apart from that one stretch in late 2010, I have not noticed Pablo being noticeably ponderous as a 3rd baseman. In fact in 2011 he was a Gold Glove finalist.

~Dood

[rxmeister]

Trading Pablo is impossible because you'd be trading low and wouldn't get equal value. Besides, you're a team that can't hit and you want to trade one of your best hitters? That doesn't even make sense. Next year is his walk year and I expect him to be in the best shape of his career and the only thing huge about him will be the numbers he puts up. The only question about Pablo isn't about trading him, it will be about whether we should re-sign him or not.

[Islandboagie]

But if we choose not to resign..wouldn't trading him make sense? I think it will be hard for the Giants to consider giving him a lengthy contract based on his constant injury issues.

[rxmeister]

How are you going to decide if you want to re-sign him if you don't keep him though? A team that intends to make a run at it is going to want a .300 hitting 25 HR player who plays superb defense, and that's what a good Sandoval is. They can always trade him at next year's deadline if they're out of it, or do the QO get a number one pick if you lose him routine like they'll be doing with Timmy and Pence.

[sfgdood]

But if we choose not to resign..wouldn't trading him make sense? I think it will be hard for the Giants to consider giving him a lengthy contract based on his constant injury issues.

Dood - I wouldnt consider the injuries as a detriment. Most of them have been pretty bad luck more than anything. The hamate thing is impossible to recur now that he has no more left. There isnt much you can do about getting drilled by a pitch. The hammy was a product of playing first base, doing the splits, which you can fix by not playing him there. Lets not forget that his athleticism and flexibility for a big man is what prompted Zito to first name him the Kung Fu Panda.

The better option would be to hope he has a big contract drive year and then make a decision next July based on how the team is doing whether to trade or not. If he has another season similar to this one, it wont scare potential trade deadline partners from wanting him if they have a big need.

~Dood

[Islandboagie]

Dood - I wouldnt consider the injuries as a detriment.

Boagie- when Pablo went down with his foot injury on June 9th the Giants were 4 games over .500. The Giants lost 5 of the next 7 and 9 of 14 before Pablo was activated on June 24th. The Giants and especially Pablo never really have regained any amount of positive momentum since June 9th.

Of course its not all Pablo's fault, but when a crucial player in your lineup keeps going down with an injury every year for an extended amount of time it weighs heavily on all the other players to stay healthy AND pickup the slack.

I love Pablo, I wish he could stay healthy but we can't keep doing this. We can't keep relying on the Uribes and Arias's to save our ass.

I understand wanting to keep Pablo, but to keep Pablo, sign him to a big contract and ignore his weight problems is going to bury this team.

If i were Sabean i'd tell Pablo to show up to Spring training in shape or he could be playing for another team come April. Like the old saying goes, shape up or ship out.

[sfgdood]

Boagie- when Pablo went down with his foot injury on June 9th the Giants were 4 games over .500. The Giants lost 5 of the next 7 and 9 of 14 before Pablo was activated on June 24th. The Giants and especially Pablo never really have regained any amount of positive momentum since June 9th.

Of course its not all Pablo's fault, but when a crucial player in your lineup keeps going down with an injury every year for an extended amount of time it weighs heavily on all the other players to stay healthy AND pickup the slack.

Dood - and if it were a recurring injury or one that was somehow preventable, I would agree whole-heartedly. But as you correctly pointed out, there were other key players who got injured and for a lengthier period of time. To pin this all on Pablo would be a gross miscarriage of fairness. He had a bad year...it happens...other players did too. I just think it's oversimplification to say he "can't" stay healthy. If a fastball hits you on the hand there isnt much you can do about it. You have to be in that position in order to be able to hit. Sometimes theres just not enough time to react. I'd like to see if you would have been in a position to hit and still avoided getting hit by those pitches.




I love Pablo, I wish he could stay healthy but we can't keep doing this. We can't keep relying on the Uribes and Arias's to save our ass.

Dood - I understand...but as I asked about with Timmy...the question is, do you give the everyday job to an inferior, cheaper option or do you get better insurance to back up Pablo? I vote for option B.



I understand wanting to keep Pablo, but to keep Pablo, sign him to a big contract and ignore his weight problems is going to bury this team.

Dood - WHOA there, Nellie...back the truck up here. First who said anything about "giving" a big contract undeserved? And when did you switch the reason for not signing him from his injuries to his weight? I agree that if the contract is long term, the boy will need to show he can get on a good dietary program and stick with it which is what will allow him to stay trim. But if the term is only 2 or 3 years, I can live with him staying pudgy as long as he hits.




If i were Sabean i'd tell Pablo to show up to Spring training in shape or he could be playing for another team come April. Like the old saying goes, shape up or ship out.

Dood - ok, let's say Sabes does that. ST comes and Pablo's about the same as he has been most of his career. Not morbidly obese but not slimmed down, clearly. What then? You're left with either chasing the bottom of the barrel or giving in to Pablo and continuing to play him.

Wrong, there are only two viable choices...one is to appeal to his sensibility. Just say "look, big guy...if you want a big contract next year from either the Giants or any other team, you better be looking a lot more fit from day one and all the way through the season." The only other option would be to trade him in the offseason. You either have to put all your eggs in the Pablo basket before ST or trade him and get a new basket.

My feeling is we wont find anyone on the FA market or on the trading market to equal what Pablo offers.

~Dood

[sharksrog]

This post has gotten idiotic. It's NOT a disgrace for a player to hit as Pablo has this season. There are plenty of players who are hitting worse than he.

Right now, Buster Posey has been hitting very poorly. Is he a disgrace too?

Of COURSE Pablo would benefit from being in better shape. Quite possibly his added weight is indirectly responsible for his poor performance in that he has often had trouble recovering from an injury, and the weight may have contributed to his foot woes.

I can't see how it had much connection to his hamate bone woes the past two seasons.

But remember that the discussion of Pablo was begun by an overweight guy himself who seems to take delight in picking on those who don't perform up to his standards.

The Giants can't really do much about the Pablo situation right now. They can't get much for a guy who is playing as poorly as he is. So why all the fuss? Let's just hope the Giants can help Pablo get back in gear.

He lost weight, and it didn't seem to improve his hitting. Something else seems to be the problem.

So why don't we just leave the Pablo situation to him and the Giants. Let's hope everyone works this out as well as they can.

Meanwhile, we're simply spinning our wheels on this topic.

[rxmeister]

I was at the game last night and was amazed at the Nats statistics when they put them up on the scoreboard. Everyone except Jayson Werth is well below what was expected of them. They're all having Pablo type seasons, except for more homeruns, which could be easily explained by the park they play in. Meanwhile we obsess over Pablo's weight and want to trade him. I doubt Nats fans have given up on Ryan Zimmerman, Bryce Harper, Ian Desmond etc. why have we given up on Pablo?

[allenreed]

I think both the injuries and weight come into play. First of all, you have an employee who doesn't take his job seriously enough to condition himself to do it optimally. Second you have an employee who has missed significant time over the last three seasons. If Pablos plays in every game the rest of this season, he still will have missed 117 games over the last three years. Way too many.
People here still talk of Pablo as if he were a productive player. He's hitting in the 250s. His last home run was July 11th. His last homer before that was May 21st. He has 27 extra base hits all year. Brandon Crawford has more. His OPS is under .700.
I would agree that this is a bad time to trade him because his value is so low.

[sfgdood]

I think both the injuries and weight come into play. First of all, you have an employee who doesn't take his job seriously enough to condition himself to do it optimally.

Dood - I have never heard that Pablo doesn't work hard enough when he's at the park (before and during games). My personal belief is the problem he has keeping weight off is dietary related. Not that that makes it better. I think Pablo doesn't take enough interest in controlling what and how much he eats. He needs to start growing up in that regard, for the sake of his career and his overall health.

That said, as a fan I really could care less what a player looks like if he's producing...which, over his career, Pablo has done, even with the boiler. He's no more overweight than Prince Fielder, who also produces (Prince's dad too).


Second you have an employee who has missed significant time over the last three seasons. If Pablos plays in every game the rest of this season, he still will have missed 117 games over the last three years. Way too many.

Dood - How many games has Buster Posey missed over that same time period? And he still needs to be coddled by being put over at 1st base, which hurts our lineup and our infield defense. I havent heard any complaints by you about Buster.




People here still talk of Pablo as if he were a productive player. He's hitting in the 250s. His last home run was July 11th. His last homer before that was May 21st. He has 27 extra base hits all year. Brandon Crawford has more. His OPS is under .700.
I would agree that this is a bad time to trade him because his value is so low.

Dood - as Rx correctly points out above, nearly the entire Nats offense has gone south too. It happens. But Pablo's career numbers show him to be a very reliable middle of the order player. He isn't old...not even close to the end of his career. His skills are still there. I think it would be a huge mistake to trade him now.

Wait to see how next season goes. He should have ample motivation to slim down and to perform, as he will be playing for his next contract. If he comes up short of expectations, you can always decide to trade him next July and I guarantee you there will be interested parties. Or if he DOES produce and you still don't want to go long term on a contract because of the factors you cited, then extend a QO and take the draft pick.

~Dood

[sfgdood]

Other than maybe Michael Young, I don't see anything very exciting there. And Young is overpriced.

Dood - see, this is exactly what I'm talking about when I talk about you HATING Pablo. Young's and Panda's career average is pretty similar, though Pablo's career OPS is about 50 points higher. This year, as bad as Pablo has been he has produced better than Young. Young has a slightly better average and OPS (still not great, though), but Pablo has hit one more HR (significant because of the difference in ballparks) and driven in 16 more runs in 10 fewer games than has Young. But of course, Pablo doesn't look as fit as Michael. He IS several years younger, though. Pablo can lose weight, whereas Young cannot go back to his prime years.

Michael Young excites you more than Pablo? Really?

~Dood

[rxmeister]

Michael Young is also a horrendous defensive player, one of the worst in the game. Meanwhile, Pablo is a good defensive third baseman. I think his defensive play is the true judge of his weight, not the hitting or injuries. When his weight is too high, he becomes a pretty bad third baseman with almost no range. When his weight is better, he becomes close to gold glove caliber. Right now he looks good down there at third, and that tells me he's in good shape and his hitting woes are just a fluky slump.