|
|
Post by rxmeister on Aug 2, 2013 22:50:49 GMT -5
So I heard somewhere that Brandon Belt played tonight. How did he do?
|
|
|
|
Post by Islandboagie on Aug 3, 2013 0:53:32 GMT -5
Mark, if he can continue producing like he did tonight on a fairly regular basis I don't think anyone here will object to him being in the lineup. But unfortunately he hasn't been able to do that in 3 seasons. As quick as Belt will catch fire, one bad at-bat will send him back into a slump. If anything, today shows that Pill getting some at-bats certainly doesn't hurt Belt.
|
|
|
|
Post by rxmeister on Aug 3, 2013 6:03:02 GMT -5
What about Pill, Boagie? His whole career is a slump! Then he has two good games and suddenly he should be playing over Belt? Pill is a lifetime .140 hitters with RISP! That's who you want out there with the game on the line? Posey doesn't get benched when he's in a slump, Panda doesn't get benched, Pence doesn't get benched. Why doesn't Belt get the same respect?
|
|
|
|
Post by Islandboagie on Aug 3, 2013 11:19:09 GMT -5
What about Pill, Boagie? His whole career is a slump! Then he has two good games and suddenly he should be playing over Belt? Pill is a lifetime .140 hitters with RISP! That's who you want out there with the game on the line? Posey doesn't get benched when he's in a slump, Panda doesn't get benched, Pence doesn't get benched. Why doesn't Belt get the same respect
Boagie- Pill hasn't had good numbers at the major league level but he's proven to be above AAA. The thought with Pill is that he may become more consistent with more consistent at-bats. That being said during both of their major league careers, Belt has averaged a homerun every 34 at-bats, whereas Pill averages a homerun every 24 at-bats. Belt averages an RBI every 8 at-bats, Pill knocks in a run every 7 at-bats. Runs? They both score about once every 8 at-bats.
Pill has been better producing run than Belt, while Pill hasn't had the same amount of time to get comfortable. Pill also only strikes out once every 6 at-bats while Belt averages a strikeout once every 4 at-bats.
Those are the facts.
Now let's consider that Pill has never been given the opportunity to get comfortable at the major league level. After looking at these numbers aren't you in the least bit interested to see what he's capable of when given a full season? Or do you want to keep up with this "Belt's the future, Pill is a career minor leaguer" routine? At very least Pill has proven that he's not terrible in LF..he should get some time there.
|
|
sfgdood
Long time member 
stats geeks never played the game...that's why they don't get it and never will
Posts: 90
|
Post by sfgdood on Aug 3, 2013 11:25:08 GMT -5
Posey doesn't get benched when he's in a slump, Panda doesn't get benched, Pence doesn't get benched. Why doesn't Belt get the same respect?
Dood - the fact that you even ask this question shows how far over the mountain you are on this one, Rx. Panda and Posey are multiple time All Stars...they have won a league MVP and a World Series MVP...they have shown consistent production over long stretches of every season they have played. Belt's best seasons would be among Buster and Pablo's worst. That's why they get the respect...Belt has yet to earn that.
Dood
|
|
|
|
Post by Islandboagie on Aug 3, 2013 11:40:33 GMT -5
Dood - the fact that you even ask this question shows how far over the mountain you are on this one, Rx. Panda and Posey are multiple time All Stars...they have won a league MVP and a World Series MVP...they have shown consistent production over long stretches of every season they have played. Belt's best seasons would be among Buster and Pablo's worst. That's why they get the respect...Belt has yet to earn that.
Dood
Boagie- it should also be noted that Pablo was benched during the post-season in 2010. Pablo's average that season was .268, Belt's batting .261, and .260 for his career.
|
|
sfgdood
Long time member
stats geeks never played the game...that's why they don't get it and never will
Posts: 90
|
Post by sfgdood on Aug 3, 2013 11:51:12 GMT -5
One other question I have for Rx is this...what is the harm in playing Pill when all these games are "meaningless" as you said before?
~Dood
|
|
|
|
Post by rxmeister on Aug 3, 2013 11:58:51 GMT -5
How's Belt's BB rates when compared to Panda? If both bat .260 it's not the same thing. Belt's .260 is more productive than Panda or Pill's .260. And please don't tell me that Pill deserves a full year based on his hitting in that hitter's league? How many .350 hitters have they called up from Fresno in the past decade that haven't done squat in the majors? Who is that CF that DK always talked about that hit .400 down there? The fact that I can't even remember his name tells you alot. Have you seen Pill's pitch selection. They'll stop throwing him strikes any day now and he'll be back in Fresno. I'm not surprised that Dood is on his bandwagon because he's emotional and mad at Belt, but I'm surprised by you, Boagie. Watch Pill hit tonight and tell me he's built for long term major league success.
|
|
|
|
Post by rxmeister on Aug 3, 2013 12:33:19 GMT -5
Dood, if you're "out of it" you start to prepare for the next year. Looking at someone who's not part of your future is a waste of time. Belt is our future first baseman, and he's not going to learn anything sitting on the bench. Pill is at best a utility man. He should be used in that role the rest of the season. Hit him some fly balls in practice and let him platoon in LF with Kieschnick. As little reason as there is for Pill to be playing, there's absolutely none for Francoeur to still be on this team.
|
|
sfgdood
Long time member
stats geeks never played the game...that's why they don't get it and never will
Posts: 90
|
Post by sfgdood on Aug 3, 2013 12:35:26 GMT -5
How's Belt's BB rates when compared to Panda? If both bat .260 it's not the same thing. Belt's .260 is more productive than Panda or Pill's .260.
Dood - Belt's career OPS is .768 and Panda's is .826. How is .768 more productive than .826?
And please don't tell me that Pill deserves a full year based on his hitting in that hitter's league? How many .350 hitters have they called up from Fresno in the past decade that haven't done squat in the majors?
Dood - I never said Pill deserves a full year in the majors. I never even said that of Belt when he first came up. All I wanted was a full month, but I'm not even saying give Pill that now. I see the fire has been lit under Belt and as long as he keeps that focus, he wont lose his job. He needed to understand that getting here and staying here are two different things. I think he does get that now.
Who is that CF that DK always talked about that hit .400 down there? The fact that I can't even remember his name tells you alot.
Dood - Jason Ellison
Have you seen Pill's pitch selection. They'll stop throwing him strikes any day now and he'll be back in Fresno.
Dood - maybe so...but why not enjoy the production while it lasts?
I'm not surprised that Dood is on his bandwagon because he's emotional and mad at Belt, but I'm surprised by you, Boagie. Watch Pill hit tonight and tell me he's built for long term major league success.
Dood - wait...you try to rate Belt as deserving the same respect as Sandoval and Posey...you call Sabean a "failure" even though he gave us our first two world championship rosters...but I'm the emotional one? Really??
~Dood
|
|
sfgdood
Long time member
stats geeks never played the game...that's why they don't get it and never will
Posts: 90
|
Post by sfgdood on Aug 3, 2013 12:47:17 GMT -5
if you're "out of it" you start to prepare for the next year. Looking at someone who's not part of your future is a waste of time.
Dood - granted but I don't think the Giants have decided Pill is definitely not a part of the team's future, and there's also another part of the equation. If you HAVE decided a player is not in your future, it's never a bad idea to showcase him at the big league level...especially when the games are "meaningless"
Belt is our future first baseman, and he's not going to learn anything sitting on the bench.
Dood - if you're still talking about someone needing to "learn" at the big league level when he's been up here for 2 and a half seasons, then there's a problem. I think sitting his ass on the bench watching Pill knock balls all over the place gave him some perspective and some fire. Again, I never said Pill was a long term solution but competition is a good thing.
Pill is at best a utility man. He should be used in that role the rest of the season. Hit him some fly balls in practice and let him platoon in LF with Kieschnick. As little reason as there is for Pill to be playing, there's absolutely none for Francoeur to still be on this team.
Dood - everyone will tell you I'm not a fan of our OF core, but Pill will never be an outfielder. They've put him out there before and he looked clueless...almost as bad as Tanaka, without the good arm.
~Dood
|
|
|
|
Post by dk on Aug 3, 2013 13:18:32 GMT -5
[
Who is that CF that DK always talked about that hit .400 down there? The fact that I can't even remember his name tells you alot.
Dood - Jason Ellison
dk...yes, he hit over .400 in Fresno and came up to the Giants and sat on the bench until the last day of the season as Alou went down in the race with a 41 year old center fielder who couldn't catch or hit the ball....Steve Finley, in case you forgot....
Have you seen Pill's pitch selection. They'll stop throwing him strikes any day now and he'll be back in Fresno.
Dood - maybe so...but why not enjoy the production while it lasts?
dk..not Bochy's way...he will go down the tubes with the platoon system despite the fact that both Pill and Belt hit higher (?)
from pitchers hitting from the same side they hit...
|
|
|
|
Post by sharksrog on Aug 3, 2013 13:57:42 GMT -5
Boagie- I'm thinking what does Chris Lincecum have to do with the fact that merely getting on base isn't the primary goal in a player's mind. Rog -- It has nothing to do with it. It does have a lot to do with your misguided idea that all I understand about baseball is stats. Boagie -- There are plenty of instances where that isn't the case...but in all those instances scoring a run or runs IS the primary goal. Rog -- Absolutely. But sometimes taking a walk is the best chance to achieve that goal. Ted Williams certainly agreed, and Ted is considered by many to be THE #1 source on hitting. Boagie -- When a pitcher is asked to sacrifice is his goal to get on base? Rog -- A pitcher is asked to sacrifice since the odds he will make an out are very high. Attempting to sacrifice significantly increases the chance the runner will advance a base, and it also reduces the chance the pitcher will make TWO outs. It is usually a good idea for pitchers to sacrifice in sacrificing situations. It usually is a poor idea for better hitters. Boagie -- When there's a runner on 3rd and less than two outs is that hitter trying to draw a walk or hit a sac fly? Rog -- Neither, really. His ideal result would be a base hit. But, yeah, he's hoping to elevate the ball and hoping to hit it well enough to get a hit or get the runner home with a fly ball. If the batter DOES make an out with the infield in, there is a fair chance it won't get the runner home. If he takes a walk, the next hitter has the same opportunity he enjoyed. Better, since there is an added runner on base. Let's suppose the pitcher knows the batter is likely to hit a low pitch on the ground if he hits it at all. Let's suppose he throws the batter pitches just below the strike zone to increase the chance of a swing-through or grounder. Are you saying the batter should swing at those low pitches? Probably not a brilliant idea. Ted Williams certainly wouldn't say so. Boagie -- If Miguel Cabrera is up in a 2 out situation with runners in scoring position...is Jim Leyland hoping for a walk? Rog -- No, but he'd prefer it to Miguel's going outside the strike zone and making an out (unless it's a sacrifice fly in a close game). Hey, let's compromise and say we're BOTH right, that it depends on the hitter himself, on the next hitter, and on the game situation. If the team is way behind in the late innings, the manager will usually be happy with a walk to get more runners on and increase the chance of evening the score or significantly lessened the lead. If the next hitter is a good one, the manager may prefer the next hitter's chances on a good pitch to the present batter's chances on a bad pitch. Finally, if the batter is the rare hitter who can hit just as well on a pitch just outside the strike zone as on one in it, the manager may not care if he goes out of the zone. There are no absolutes on this one -- as is almost always the case in this world. Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=general&thread=1938&page=1#13432#ixzz2avrxgjON |
|
|
|
Post by sharksrog on Aug 3, 2013 14:00:29 GMT -5
|
|
|
|
Post by sharksrog on Aug 3, 2013 14:03:19 GMT -5
Boagie -- Mark, if he can continue producing like he did tonight on a fairly regular basis I don't think anyone here will object to him being in the lineup. But unfortunately he hasn't been able to do that in 3 seasons. As quick as Belt will catch fire, one bad at-bat will send him back into a slump. If anything, today shows that Pill getting some at-bats certainly doesn't hurt Belt. Rog -- Actually, it is too small a sample to show anything. I did find it humorous though that after all this "play Pill" talk, Brett doesn't play -- and Brandon wins the game, nearly hitting TWO homers. Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=general&action=display&thread=1938&page=2#ixzz2avzFfmWB |
|
|
|
Post by sharksrog on Aug 3, 2013 14:05:30 GMT -5
Boagie- Pill hasn't had good numbers at the major league level but he's proven to be above AAA. Rog -- I don't remember who it was, but someone within the past day said that Brett is a Four A player (as he's been called here and elsewhere before). Too good for AAA, but not good enough for the majors. That's pretty much the limit of what a guy is when he's approaching 29 years old and has 200 or so plate appearances in the majors. Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=general&thread=1938&page=2#ixzz2avzmHwnw |
|
|
|
Post by rxmeister on Aug 3, 2013 14:13:38 GMT -5
Brandon Belt's OPS is .781 this year, Pablo's is .717. Who's better this year, Dood? Which one got benched for non production?
|
|
|
|
Post by sharksrog on Aug 3, 2013 14:23:39 GMT -5
Boagie -- Pill has been better producing run than Belt, while Pill hasn't had the same amount of time to get comfortable. Pill also only strikes out once every 6 at-bats while Belt averages a strikeout once every 4 at-bats. Rog -- The one advantage Brett enjoys over Brandon is that he strikes out a lot less. As for producing more runs, a couple of things: First, run production has to do with teammates as well as the hitter himself. Second, Pill has NOT been as good a run producer as Belt. Pill has "produced" 51 runs while making 159 outs. That's 3.12 outs per run produced. Belt has "produced" 227 runs while making 696 outs. That's 3.07 outs per run produced. Pretty close, but Pill is clearly not the winner. Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=general&thread=1938&page=2#ixzz2aw0Jda2t |
|
|
|
Post by sharksrog on Aug 3, 2013 14:25:43 GMT -5
|
|
|
|
Post by sharksrog on Aug 3, 2013 14:29:46 GMT -5
Mark -- Pill is at best a utility man. He should be used in that role the rest of the season. Hit him some fly balls in practice and let him platoon in LF with Kieschnick. Rog -- The funny thing is that when the Four A comment was made about Pill, it wasn't in the context of being the regular first baseman. It was in the context of being a backup at first base and left field, and being a right-handed pinch hitter. The thought was that team's can no longer afford to have a player just as a pitch hitter and that Pill wasn't a good fielder no matter where he was put. I have to disagree in that I think Brett is a competent first baseman. Mark -- As little reason as there is for Pill to be playing, there's absolutely none for Francoeur to still be on this team. Rog -- And i suspect Jeff's leash is short. But the Giants are probably hoping that he shows enough to be considered for at least being a platoon outfielder next season in what is now the Giants' biggest weakness. Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=general&thread=1938&page=2#ixzz2aw5SFZy2 |
|
|
|
Post by sharksrog on Aug 3, 2013 14:39:23 GMT -5
Mark -- How's Belt's BB rates when compared to Panda? If both bat .260 it's not the same thing. Belt's .260 is more productive than Panda or Pill's .260. Dood - Belt's career OPS is .768 and Panda's is .826. How is .768 more productive than .826? Rog -- That isn't what Mark said, Randy. Get it right, for crying out loud. Mark said that because he gets on base more via other methods, Belt's .260 is more productive than Pablo's. Pablo's .826 OPS is based on a .298 average. If he batting average were only .260, we could expect something closer to a .720 OPS. Indeed the season Pablo hit close to .260 -- .268, to be exact -- his OPS was .732. That's not as high as Brandon's .768 OPS with a .260 average. Mark made an apples statement. You argued with oranges. I'm not saying either of you is a fruit. Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=general&thread=1938&page=2#ixzz2aw6RyQbt |
|
|
|
Post by sharksrog on Aug 3, 2013 14:51:45 GMT -5
Randy -- I see the fire has been lit under Belt and as long as he keeps that focus, he wont lose his job. He needed to understand that getting here and staying here are two different things. I think he does get that now. Rog -- I suspect he realized that when he got sent down to the minors and saw first-hand that getting to the majors and staying there are two different things. You realize you put yourself in a no-lose position here, right Randy? If Belt continued to do poorly, well, he had lost his focus just as you said he had. And if he bounced back, heck, he was motivated back into focus. Not saying you're wrong, by the way. I just found it intriguing. Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=general&thread=1938&page=2#ixzz2aw8vtKtJ |
|
sfgdood
Long time member
stats geeks never played the game...that's why they don't get it and never will
Posts: 90
|
Post by sfgdood on Aug 3, 2013 16:20:07 GMT -5
Brandon Belt's OPS is .781 this year, Pablo's is .717. Who's better this year, Dood? Which one got benched for non production?
Dood - those season OPS numbers were essentially switched in the month of July, giving Bochy more reason to have faith lately in Pablo than Belt. But the career OPS numbers show why overall Pablo has EARNED more faith than belt has.
~Dood
|
|
|
|
Post by rxmeister on Aug 3, 2013 18:13:12 GMT -5
Don't get me wrong, I'm not advocating benching Panda. I just think Belt deserves the same respect. But this is a common thing we've seen with Bochy over the years, going back to San Diego and Vinny Castilla. Sabean had to trade Bengie Molina to get Posey behind the plate every day. Miguel Tejeda, Orlando Cabrera or Edgar Renteria would be starting over Crawford if one of them were still here. Belt would probably be way ahead of where he is now if Bochy would stop jacking him around. Maybe he'll have to find a GM silly enough to trade for Pill. Hey Dood, send in your résumé to some big league teams!
|
|
|
|
Post by sharksrog on Aug 4, 2013 18:48:31 GMT -5
Mark -- Miguel Tejeda, Orlando Cabrera or Edgar Renteria would be starting over Crawford if one of them were still here. Rog -- That seems unlikely. Crawford didn't play with Renteria, but he did start quite a bit over both Tejada and Cabrera. Perhaps we shouldn't get carried away with this veterans over rookies thing. Another way to look at it is that if the rookie is good enough, he has a chance to blow the veteran out of the way -- unless of course the veteran himself is quite good. Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=general&thread=1938&page=2#13481#ixzz2b2zMSYUt |
|
|
|
Post by klaiggeb on Aug 5, 2013 11:20:29 GMT -5
Mark -- Miguel Tejeda, Orlando Cabrera or Edgar Renteria would be starting over Crawford if one of them were still here.
Rog -- That seems unlikely. Crawford didn't play with Renteria, but he did start quite a bit over both Tejada and Cabrera.
Perhaps we shouldn't get carried away with this veterans over rookies thing.
---boly says---
Rog, Mark was being faceteaous, not serious.
He's got issues with BoTchy, and so do I.
One poster, Randy(?) Boagie(?) said we won in spite of him, not because of him... and there's a part of me that agrees.
A part.
boly
|
|
|
|
Post by sharksrog on Aug 5, 2013 13:08:28 GMT -5
Mark -- Miguel Tejeda, Orlando Cabrera or Edgar Renteria would be starting over Crawford if one of them were still here. Rog -- That seems unlikely. Crawford didn't play with Renteria, but he did start quite a bit over both Tejada and Cabrera. Perhaps we shouldn't get carried away with this veterans over rookies thing. ---boly says--- Rog, Mark was being faceteaous, not serious. He's got issues with BoTchy, and so do I. One poster, Randy(?) Boagie(?) said we won in spite of him, not because of him... and there's a part of me that agrees. A part. Rog -- I missed out on the facetious part. There has been so much talk about how Bruce doesn't give the young players a chance that I guess I got sucked in. Sorry, Mark. Managers are easy to cricitize, when most of their work in motivating players we don't even see. If someone wants to say that the Giants win in SPITE of Bruce rather than because of him, they are flying in the face of those who consider him among the best managers in the game and a future Hall of Fame candidate. Bruce began to get credit here when virtually EVERY one of his 2010 postseason moves worked spectacularly, but he was the same manager he had long been. I don't think he's any less a manager this season even though the Giants aren't winning. Not that Bruce has much to do with it other than to show patience, but the Giants' starting pitching is bouncing back. He made a strong move in taking the floundering Barry Zito out of the rotation. Bochy is now considering a change in the leadoff spot. Both Gregor Blanco (something like 5 for 49) and Andres Torres (1 for 20?) have floundered there, so he is considering Hunter Pence or Marco Scutaro. Bochy is also thinking of batting Brandon Belt #5 to keep the lefties and righties broken up. Frankly, I think the Giants could do worse than bat him 2nd. He hardly ever hits into a double play. If Bochy leads off with Scutaro, I wonder if he'll use the right/lefty theme and hit Brandon Crawford 2nd. Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=general&thread=1938&page=2#13512#ixzz2b7QiOpSE |
|
sfgdood
Long time member
stats geeks never played the game...that's why they don't get it and never will
Posts: 90
|
Post by sfgdood on Aug 5, 2013 14:04:00 GMT -5
It wasn't me who said we won in spite of Bochy. The guy knows what he's doing. I don't always agree with it, but three NL penants and two WS titles has made a believer out of me. For example, I believe he overmanaged the bullpen Saturday night and as a result we were already at the bottom of the barrel by the time the 10th inning came along.
That said, you can't argue with the results he has produced. Baseball managing is more than just game strategy, and as a leader of men, Bruce is unquestionably one of the best in the game.
~Dood
|
|
|
|
Post by dk on Aug 5, 2013 14:20:46 GMT -5
Bochy is now considering a change in the leadoff spot. Both Gregor Blanco (something like 5 for 49) and Andres Torres (1 for 20?) have floundered there, so he is considering Hunter Pence or Marco Scutaro.
Bochy is also thinking of batting Brandon Belt #5 to keep the lefties and righties broken up. Frankly, I think the Giants could do worse than bat him 2nd. He hardly ever hits into a double play.
If Bochy leads off with Scutaro, I wonder if he'll use the right/lefty theme and hit Brandon Crawford 2nd.
dk...I think he should consider hitting Crawford as lead off, followed by Scutaro, Posey, Pablo, Pence, Belt/Pill, Kieschnick/Frenchy, Castro....Pitcher...Pence is a RBI hitter and Scooter is an ideal 2 hitter...why consider leading off with them....Crawford is starting to draw more walks and has enough speed to hit in the one slot....and he might get some better pitches to hit at that spot.....
|
|
